Labour has turned into a party of the middle classes

1066familyman · May 13, 2015

Soulman said:
Not according to the opening thread link, apparently Labour have won over the middle classes but lost the working class.....hard to believe i know.

It's a bit odd that you find it "hard to believe" that Labour have lost the working class but won over the middle classes. Have you not noticed the long term trend in the Labour party for quite some time now? Unless you're just surprised about the middle class bit, given the outcome of the election.

I live in a marginal, so felt I had to vote Labour in a bid to stop the Tories returning (it didn't work unfortunately), but I had the same doorstep conversation I've been having since 'New Labour' was invented. I'd have just voted no confidence or Greens if we knew we was going to get either a large Labour or Tory majority.

P.S If they elect Chuka Ummuna as next leader then the party can look forward to losing even more of their grip on the working class North of the country too.

warmleyseagull · May 13, 2015

"won over" is overstating the case when England south of the Wash to the Severn is painted blue outside London; Labour may have won a few net additional middle class voters but nowhere near enough to be a serious propostion to win in 2020. It is increasingly looking like a busted flush: squeezed by the Conservatives on the right/south and anyone else on the left/north& Scotland.

Blair could afford to appeal more to middle classes as he knew a pig's bladder with a red scarf would win in most seats in metropolitan north England and central Scotland so all he had to do was win seats in the south. That is clearly no longer true so the next Labour leader has a virtually impossible task of appealing to the traditional left who represent the remaining ostriches who actually believe there is enough cloth cap and concerned leftie vote out there to win an election yet reaching out to those among us who could vote for a party that stands for aspiration.

Gwylan · May 13, 2015

warmleyseagull said:
Blair could afford to appeal more to middle classes as he knew a pig's bladder with a red scarf would win in most seats in metropolitan north England and central Scotland so all he had to do was win seats in the south. That is clearly no longer true so the next Labour leader has a virtually impossible task of appealing to the traditional left who represent the remaining ostriches who actually believe there is enough cloth cap and concerned leftie vote out there to win an election yet reaching out to those among us who could vote for a party that stands for aspiration.

I agree. This is the point that's completely missed by the Blairites who say "move to the centre and it will all be all right". Blair could do that as the left and traditional working class had nowhere else to go, they now have SNP, the Greens and PC as left alternatives and UKIP playing on concerns on the north. The analysis from Trickett suggests it's hard enough to capture all English voters - and that's before winning back the Scottish deserters.

That's why I think Labour will lose next election too. It needs a new leader in 2020 and a change of direction, breaking away from traditional labels. Not becoming more left or more right but different. It's going to be a long haul

1066familyman · May 13, 2015

warmleyseagull said:
"won over" is overstating the case when England south of the Wash to the Severn is painted blue outside London; Labour may have won a few net additional middle class voters but nowhere near enough to be a serious propostion to win in 2020. It is increasingly looking like a busted flush: squeezed by the Conservatives on the right/south and anyone else on the left/north& Scotland.

Blair could afford to appeal more to middle classes as he knew a pig's bladder with a red scarf would win in most seats in metropolitan north England and central Scotland so all he had to do was win seats in the south. That is clearly no longer true so the next Labour leader has a virtually impossible task of appealing to the traditional left who represent the remaining ostriches who actually believe there is enough cloth cap and concerned leftie vote out there to win an election yet reaching out to those among us who could vote for a party that stands for aspiration.

Another one for the bandwagon I see. Great to see so much original thought abound.

You'll all wear the "Aspiration" word out if you're not careful. I wonder how so many people acquired such a rich and varied way with words....."education, education education" no doubt

ROSM · May 14, 2015

1066familyman said:
Another one for the bandwagon I see. Great to see so much original thought abound.

You'll all wear the "Aspiration" word out if you're not careful. I wonder how so many people acquired such a rich and varied way with words....."education, education education" no doubt

I understand what you're saying but my view is that the traditional working class have views thay are no longer able to be pigeonholed as left or right wing. In my view this needs to be include

- employment protection
- Effective public services such as education and health free at the point of use
- Control on immigration
- Benefits that support people who 'want to do the right thing'
- Housing availability ( and given nobody is going to promote a policy to reduce house prices this means social housing or cheap access to loans or effective rental policies)
- Fair tax policies and reduction in avoidance and evasion

That's a fair mix of things

Milton Keynes Seagull · May 14, 2015

Most of you seem to missing the essential point when referring to "class". There are very few traditional working class communities left in the country. That is to say generations of long established families living in one area primarily selling their labour to industries that were also long established. Most lived in rented accommodation, when social housing was far more readily available than today. Labour via the trade unions was their party, with roots going back to the nineteenth century.

What has happened is that since the 1980s, this has changed dramatically. The old heavy industries have vanished and social mobility has taken place on a vast scale. People have moved upwards economically and indeed physically. A key to this is the number of people on this board who give their location as outside Brighton and Hove. So called working class solidarity last evinced itself in the 1985 miners strike, where such remaining communities fought in vain to save their industry and their communities. Since then, many former "workers" have moved socially into home ownership and acquired new skills often moving in the process.

The result has been that former working class communities now consist of home owning, often materially better off people, especially those who bought their council houses under Thatcher. No working class solidarity here, but more of "my house is worth" and "I'm going to Majorca this year". Running alongside this was the splitting of the former working class into the underclass, dwelling or subsisting on sink estates and more than likely not bothering to vote at all, living in a sea of hopelessness and depression vilified routinely by the press, not least by those former working class people who have prospered with home ownership, cashing in their equity to fund their materialistic and consumerist lifestyles.

I'll give you an example. Most of my former colleagues at the Open University are routinely left wing. None of them can be described as working class, and many of them are to be found in areas normally associated with "new money", or alternatively enjoying quintessential rural English village life. They maintain the former radicalism acquired from their student days with attendance at alternative art and cultural events or choking on their Waitrose muesli when reading in The Guardian about the latest politically incorrect statement supposedly uttered by someone whose roots really do come from earthy working class communities.

Traditional working class areas of Milton Keynes are now inhabited by low paid or unemployed people or young people having to take private rent even though superficially some of them earn a reasonable salary. The former railway town of Wolverton (once a typical working class area with neat rows of terraced houses) is now occupied by these people and ethnic minorities, in the case of Wolverton predominantly Muslim.

London Irish · May 14, 2015

Milton Keynes Seagull said:
The result has been that former working class communities now consist of home owning, often materially better off people, especially those who bought their council houses under Thatcher. No working class solidarity here, but more of "my house is worth" and "I'm going to Majorca this year"

Actually there is nothing new in this, there has always been loads of working class Tories - the so-called Angels in Marble who legendary pollster Bob Worcester wrote about 50 years ago http://www.amazon.co.uk/Angels-Marble-Working-Conservatives-England/dp/0435835858

People seem to forget the Tories won a lot of elections in the days of cloth caps and whippets. People have never instinctively voted on siimplistic class lines, the job for political parties remains the same as it ever was

alfredmizen · May 14, 2015

ROSM said:
I understand what you're saying but my view is that the traditional working class have views thay are no longer able to be pigeonholed as left or right wing. In my view this needs to be include

- employment protection
- Effective public services such as education and health free at the point of use
- Control on immigration
- Benefits that support people who 'want to do the right thing'
- Housing availability ( and given nobody is going to promote a policy to reduce house prices this means social housing or cheap access to loans or effective rental policies)
- Fair tax policies and reduction in avoidance and evasion

That's a fair mix of things

id vote for all that, let me know when there's is a party that puts BRITISH people at the front of the queue for all that and I'll vote for them, no question.

glasfryn · May 14, 2015

seagullsovergrimsby said:
No need to tell me LI , I ripped up my Labour Party membership card a fortnight after Blair got the keys to number 10.

exactly that
I started to worry when
Steve Bassam(now Lord Brighton) failed to give backing to those councilors who refused to pay the pole tax and they were expelled from the party, we had talked about this and my take on it was that he should have insisted that it was law and that it had to be paid but under protest...............that was the beginning of the end for me.

glasfryn · May 14, 2015

London Irish said:
Actually there is nothing new in this, there has always been loads of working class Tories - the so-called Angels in Marble who legendary pollster Bob Worcester wrote about 50 years ago http://www.amazon.co.uk/Angels-Marble-Working-Conservatives-England/dp/0435835858

People seem to forget the Tories won a lot of elections in the days of cloth caps and whippets. People have never instinctively voted on siimplistic class lines, the job for political parties remains the same as it ever was

it used to surprise me while living in Wales there still those ex-miners who lost their living through the closures during thatchers time and are still jobless that vote tory

Soulman · May 14, 2015

1066familyman said:
It's a bit odd that you find it "hard to believe" that Labour have lost the working class but won over the middle classes. Have you not noticed the long term trend in the Labour party for quite some time now? Unless you're just surprised about the middle class bit, given the outcome of the election.

I live in a marginal, so felt I had to vote Labour in a bid to stop the Tories returning (it didn't work unfortunately), but I had the same doorstep conversation I've been having since 'New Labour' was invented. I'd have just voted no confidence or Greens if we knew we was going to get either a large Labour or Tory majority.

P.S If they elect Chuka Ummuna as next leader then the party can look forward to losing even more of their grip on the working class North of the country too.

I think you have answered your own question re working and middle class by stating Chuka and northern votes being working class. Labour did not do especially well in middle class areas.

alfredmizen · May 14, 2015

Gwylan said:
I agree. This is the point that's completely missed by the Blairites who say "move to the centre and it will all be all right". Blair could do that as the left and traditional working class had nowhere else to go, they now have SNP, the Greens and PC as left alternatives and UKIP playing on concerns on the north. The analysis from Trickett suggests it's hard enough to capture all English voters - and that's before winning back the Scottish deserters.

That's why I think Labour will lose next election too. It needs a new leader in 2020 and a change of direction, breaking away from traditional labels. Not becoming more left or more right but different. It's going to be a long haul

You're deluded if you think the English working class will vote for the greens in any significant numbers.

Chicken Run · May 14, 2015

London Irish said:
Most interesting analysis I've seen yet of what went wrong last Thursday, some actual data crunching below by Jon Trickett MP. Confirms Labour gained support among the middle classes but lost working class voters. The surest sign yet that the party has turned its back on its core supporters, those who it was founded to represent. The "failed to mobilise" element is also key ---- these are the vital issues all the candidates for leadership will have to address

http://www.jontrickett.org.uk/labour_s_missing_millions_part_2

Haven't you got anything else in your life to be getting in with, I don't know maybe be true to your Labour core beliefs and collect some money for the homeless and buy em lunch(I've done that today btw)

alfredmizen · May 14, 2015

London Irish said:
Most interesting analysis I've seen yet of what went wrong last Thursday, some actual data crunching below by Jon Trickett MP. Confirms Labour gained support among the middle classes but lost working class voters. The surest sign yet that the party has turned its back on its core supporters, those who it was founded to represent. The "failed to mobilise" element is also key ---- these are the vital issues all the candidates for leadership will have to address

http://www.jontrickett.org.uk/labour_s_missing_millions_part_2

The white working class, Labour turned its back on them a long time ago.

peterward · May 14, 2015

London Irish said:
Most interesting analysis I've seen yet of what went wrong last Thursday, some actual data crunching below by Jon Trickett MP. Confirms Labour gained support among the middle classes but lost working class voters. The surest sign yet that the party has turned its back on its core supporters, those who it was founded to represent. The "failed to mobilise" element is also key ---- these are the vital issues all the candidates for leadership will have to address

http://www.jontrickett.org.uk/labour_s_missing_millions_part_2

I dont think it appealed to either. And whilst historically almost 100 years ago it was the party of the working poor when their was a small middle class and a lot less super Rich it may then have been relevant. But its not 1922 anymore its 2015 and there are vaste swathes of middle classes, the average working class worker wants to improve their lot and move up the ladder and therefore aspiration and enterprise is key. I'm not sure the Labour party knows who it is right now their are so many factions within it all worried about their own power theyve forgotten theyre meant to serve the people of the whole UK, youve got the luny fringe of the unions who are die hard ideologists from a bygone era who despise the Blairite centrists, and many of those centrists who want to cut loose Union influence (GOOD move imho) the centrists are the modernisers who see the world and the electorate as it is today.

The Labour party needs to learn that the majority of the country wont vote for some outdated ideas on socialism, they want aspiration. The Labour party should stop thinking their ideologies are the answer to what people need and actually listen to what the people say the want and then serve the peoples stated needs, not recycling failed leftist strategies from the last century.

They can do nothing from opposition to implement any core labour values, they can only do that with power and they can only get power by appealing to the middle, not just the left. Blair learned that, and if the next leader does, then one day soon you will win again and then you can implement Labour policies. All the time you cling to failed ideologies that appeal to the hardcore vote, ignoring what the electorate actually want, you'll be sounding from the sidelines.

Burnham is NOT the answer, it will be re-polishing the same old turd with the same old result, maybe it will go down well with the rank and file but that will not win an election. You need to move to just left of centre to ever win again.

Gwylan · May 14, 2015

alfredmizen said:
You're deluded if you think the English working class will vote for the greens in any significant numbers.

I didn't say they would: I said "the left and traditional working class had nowhere else to go", I stand by that, there were many people in the 90s who were well to the left of mainstream Labour but continued to vote for them - that's not necessarily the case now

Machiavelli · May 14, 2015

Milton Keynes Seagull said:
Most of you seem to missing the essential point when referring to "class". There are very few traditional working class communities left in the country. That is to say generations of long established families living in one area primarily selling their labour to industries that were also long established. Most lived in rented accommodation, when social housing was far more readily available than today. Labour via the trade unions was their party, with roots going back to the nineteenth century.

What has happened is that since the 1980s, this has changed dramatically. The old heavy industries have vanished and social mobility has taken place on a vast scale. People have moved upwards economically and indeed physically. A key to this is the number of people on this board who give their location as outside Brighton and Hove. So called working class solidarity last evinced itself in the 1985 miners strike, where such remaining communities fought in vain to save their industry and their communities. Since then, many former "workers" have moved socially into home ownership and acquired new skills often moving in the process.

The result has been that former working class communities now consist of home owning, often materially better off people, especially those who bought their council houses under Thatcher. No working class solidarity here, but more of "my house is worth" and "I'm going to Majorca this year". Running alongside this was the splitting of the former working class into the underclass, dwelling or subsisting on sink estates and more than likely not bothering to vote at all, living in a sea of hopelessness and depression vilified routinely by the press, not least by those former working class people who have prospered with home ownership, cashing in their equity to fund their materialistic and consumerist lifestyles.

I'll give you an example. Most of my former colleagues at the Open University are routinely left wing. None of them can be described as working class, and many of them are to be found in areas normally associated with "new money", or alternatively enjoying quintessential rural English village life. They maintain the former radicalism acquired from their student days with attendance at alternative art and cultural events or choking on their Waitrose muesli when reading in The Guardian about the latest politically incorrect statement supposedly uttered by someone whose roots really do come from earthy working class communities.

Traditional working class areas of Milton Keynes are now inhabited by low paid or unemployed people or young people having to take private rent even though superficially some of them earn a reasonable salary. The former railway town of Wolverton (once a typical working class area with neat rows of terraced houses) is now occupied by these people and ethnic minorities, in the case of Wolverton predominantly Muslim.

This is a top post, but [MENTION=25]Gwylan[/MENTION] also seems to recognise the extent of Labour's challenge. I'm not so sure the Labour candidates do, especially with their eagerness to associate themselves with New Labour in any which way they can.

London Irish · May 14, 2015

Chicken Run said:
Haven't you got anything else in your life to be getting in with, I don't know maybe be true to your Labour core beliefs and collect some money for the homeless and buy em lunch(I've done that today btw)

Well let us know if that eases your troubled conscience, given you support a government that has caused homelessness to rocket given the property bubble they continually inflate, no housing investment and cuts in care to the mentally ill. You must be so proud of foodbank Britain, huh?

London Irish · May 14, 2015

alfredmizen said:
The white working class, Labour turned its back on them a long time ago.

Sorry? Why are the needs of the white working class any different to the black working class? Try and answer this without being blatantly racist

Guinness Boy · May 14, 2015

alfredmizen said:
id vote for all that, let me know when there's is a party that puts BRITISH people at the front of the queue for all that and I'll vote for them, no question.

alfredmizen said:
The white working class, Labour turned its back on them a long time ago.

London Irish said:
Sorry? Why are the needs of the white working class any different to the black working class? Try and answer this without being blatantly racist

And while you're at it what's your definition of British in that context?

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