UK net migration hits record high

Soulman · Aug 31, 2015

daveinprague said:
Maybe if we stopped bombing the crap out of some of these countries, they wont be so fecking radical.

Really, then how come so many that have had the "crap" bombed out of them are desperate to enter the countries that have bombed the "crap" out of them.
Pretty sure i would not travel for up to 18 months to reach a country that had bombed the crap out of mine. Unless..........
Oh i suppose we are to blame for the trouble and refugees coming from Somalia, Yemen, Chad, Nigeria, and any other country that is at war with itself and we are not bombing the "crap" out of......Righto.

Hastings gull · Aug 31, 2015

BadFish said:
I don't think BobbySmith was referring to 'the millions already here". I think he was referring to refugees and asylum seekers.

The way I interpreted your post was that you were implying that little old measly 120,000 were in the queue, in response to my earlier contention that the Brits had already done their bit. Whatever he was or was not saying, 120,000 may be the current figure, but it is not in isolation. You have to take into account the numbers already here, and those likely to come. And those here illegally.

Guy Crouchback · Aug 31, 2015

I've just seen photos of children, 3 to 5 years old, who drowned together with their parents whilst trying to reach Europe--absolutely shocking. When you only read about it, or see numbers on paper, it's harder to realise what is actually happening, and it is a humanitarian disaster. In moments like this it is rather vomit-inducing to read about "taking our jobs" or "scrounging on benefits"... also the very concept of a person being "illegal" is difficult to comprehend. I wish newspapers would use phrases like "illegal child", "illegal woman" or "illegal man" instead of "illegal immigrant"; this might maybe (just maybe) accidentally incite human feelings in some readers.

As far as I'm concerned they can all come to Poland; we are not a rich country, but we have enough bread to share with those people. I hope our government will do the right thing and accept as many refugees as possible. If not, I shall be thoroughly ashamed.

Herr Tubthumper · Aug 31, 2015

Guy Crouchback said:
I've just seen photos of children, 3 to 5 years old, who drowned together with their parents whilst trying to reach Europe--absolutely shocking. When you only read about it, or see numbers on paper, it's harder to realise what is actually happening, and it is a humanitarian disaster. In moments like this it is rather vomit-inducing to read about "taking our jobs" or "scrounging on benefits"... also the very concept of a person being "illegal" is difficult to comprehend. I wish newspapers would use phrases like "illegal child", "illegal woman" or "illegal man" instead of "illegal immigrant"; this might maybe (just maybe) accidentally incite human feelings in some readers.

As far as I'm concerned they can all come to Poland; we are not a rich country, but we have enough bread to share with those people. I hope our government will do the right thing and accept as many refugees as possible. If not, I shall be thoroughly ashamed.

This.

Hastings gull · Aug 31, 2015

Guy Crouchback said:
I've just seen photos of children, 3 to 5 years old, who drowned together with their parents whilst trying to reach Europe--absolutely shocking. When you only read about it, or see numbers on paper, it's harder to realise what is actually happening, and it is a humanitarian disaster. In moments like this it is rather vomit-inducing to read about "taking our jobs" or "scrounging on benefits"... also the very concept of a person being "illegal" is difficult to comprehend. I wish newspapers would use phrases like "illegal child", "illegal woman" or "illegal man" instead of "illegal immigrant"; this might maybe (just maybe) accidentally incite human feelings in some readers.

No one doubts your sincerity - I certainly don't - and it is truly heart-breaking when we see such pictures, but you are being dreadfully simplistic when you infer that the use of the expression "illegal immigrant" is necessarily a sign of a lack of human feeling. Of course simple throw-away lines such as you mention are easy to use, and do not always tell the whole truth. But there is no denying that immigration on the scale we are witnessing does have far-reaching social consequences, and you ignore this at your peril.
Again, I accept that you are quite genuine when you say they should all come to Poland but I would respectfully submit, that, however well-intentioned, this is in the end quite irresponsible. As you say Poland is not a rich country -why else would we have hundreds of thousands of them? - and assimilating millions of immigrants there would put huge and probably intolerable stresses on their relatively weak infrastructure, as you must surely appreciate, with its likely negative affect on social cohesion. What evidence do you have that the bulk of the Polish people would want this? And what sacrifice are you willing to make, because this is what it boils down to, if you encourage immigration on a gigantic scale?

BigGully · Aug 31, 2015

Guy Crouchback said:
I've just seen photos of children, 3 to 5 years old, who drowned together with their parents whilst trying to reach Europe--absolutely shocking. When you only read about it, or see numbers on paper, it's harder to realise what is actually happening, and it is a humanitarian disaster. In moments like this it is rather vomit-inducing to read about "taking our jobs" or "scrounging on benefits"... also the very concept of a person being "illegal" is difficult to comprehend. I wish newspapers would use phrases like "illegal child", "illegal woman" or "illegal man" instead of "illegal immigrant"; this might maybe (just maybe) accidentally incite human feelings in some readers.

As far as I'm concerned they can all come to Poland; we are not a rich country, but we have enough bread to share with those people. I hope our government will do the right thing and accept as many refugees as possible. If not, I shall be thoroughly ashamed.

Just because you seem not to have much comprehension of the consequence of another wave of uncontrolled migration throughout the EU, it doesnt make your position necessarily more compassionate than my position that thinks its an absolute outrage that the modern day career politicians that have been unable to foresee, react and implement actions that would decentivise those that make the journey, in many cases perhaps not from a war torn hell hole many so automatically assume.

Its destabilisation throughout the continent I fear will end with some civil unrest and a lurch to the right, perhaps an ugly political right.

Guy Crouchback · Aug 31, 2015

Hastings gull said:
No one doubts your sincerity - I certainly don't - and it is truly heart-breaking when we see such pictures, but you are being dreadfully simplistic when you infer that the use of the expression "illegal immigrant" is necessarily a sign of a lack of human feeling.

Perhaps it isn't, mate, perhaps it isn't, but when I read about "illegal immigrant aged 12 found wandering along busy motorway" or something along these lines, it is sometimes difficult not to question human feelings of some journalists. Maybe I'm wrong...

Hastings Gull said:
But there is no denying that immigration on the scale we are witnessing does have far-reaching social consequences, and you ignore this at your peril.

There is a greater peril that I fear--that I will one day have a very difficult conversation, and I will hear from my interlocutor: "I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing"... I somehow doubt that I will get away with gibbering about "far-reaching social consequences".

Hastings Gull said:
Again, I accept that you are quite genuine when you say they should all come to Poland but I would respectfully submit, that, however well-intentioned, this is in the end quite irresponsible. As you say Poland is not a rich country -why else would we have hundreds of thousands of them?

Greed, mate--that's the problem with modern world. People want to have fancy cars, large appartments, go on holidays all around the world etc. etc. Why earn £500 in Poland when you can earn £1500 in the UK, absolutely legally? Do you think people who left Poland would starve if they stayed, or would be homeless? No, but they wanted more--they moved to your country because they wanted to be better off than they would be if they had stayed in Poland.

Hastings Gull said:
and assimilating millions of immigrants there would put huge and probably intolerable stresses on their relatively weak infrastructure, as you must surely appreciate, with its likely negative affect on social cohesion.

There are about 36 million people living in Poland, our farming at its full potential could feed 120 million people, our territory is larger than Italy's and population density in Poland is about four times lower than that of Netherlands. Also, around 2 million people left our country since 2004, so talking about "intolerable stress on infrastructure" might be a slight exaggeration.

Hasting Gull said:
What evidence do you have that the bulk of the Polish people would want this?

Bulk of the Polish people are Christians, and we are talking about children drowning and people fleeing war and persecution. I have no "evidence", but I believe that most Polish people share my view.

Hastings Gull said:
And what sacrifice are you willing to make, because this is what it boils down to, if you encourage immigration on a gigantic scale?

I would be willing to be taxed extra, or even to pay a regular contribution to finance a comprehensive aid program for refugees. If it came to this, I might even house and feed some of those poor people. You see, I have this difficult conversation that I mentioned, waiting for me some time in the future.

Hastings gull · Aug 31, 2015

Guy Crouchback said:
Perhaps it isn't, mate, perhaps it isn't, but when I read about "illegal immigrant aged 12 found wandering along busy motorway" or something along these lines, it is sometimes difficult not to question human feelings of some journalists. Maybe I'm wrong...

OK, I see what you mean -it might be insensitive, given that it is a child, and of course you use this example deliberately, but that does not really mean that the journalist has no feelings.

There is a greater peril that I fear--that I will one day have a very difficult conversation, and I will hear from my interlocutor: "I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing"... I somehow doubt that I will get away with gibbering about "far-reaching social consequences".

Or you might hear - I have had an awful life and I demand that you let me into your house, and give me immediate access to all that you take for granted, and have built up over your lifetime. I can't help but feel that you have conveniently put words into the mouth of your kindly interlocutor. He may not be as kind, as you think.

Greed, mate--that's the problem with modern world. People want to have fancy cars, large appartments, go on holidays all around the world etc. etc. Why earn £500 in Poland when you can earn £1500 in the UK, absolutely legally? Do you think people who left Poland would starve if they stayed, or would be homeless? No, but they wanted more--they moved to your country because they wanted to be better off than they would be if they had stayed in Poland.

I can't help but feel that you are confusing greed with an understandable desire to better yourself and your family's prospects. No, I don't feel that the Poles here would have starved or be homeless, had they stayed, but the vast majority claim as the main reason was the fear or reality of unemployment. That still does not mean that we had a moral obligation to take them all, just that they took advantage of the EU's rules and our politicians' naïve stance. We were assured that 13,000 would come; in the event it was 700,000.

There are about 36 million people living in Poland, our farming at its full potential could feed 120 million people, our territory is larger than Italy's and population density in Poland is about four times lower than that of Netherlands. Also, around 2 million people left our country since 2004, so talking about "intolerable stress on infrastructure" might be a slight exaggeration.

OK that might be the case, though your comparisons are rather convenient, particularly with the Netherlands. But Poland is still largely an agrarian society, or at least more so than in Western Europe, shall we say, and if you feel that you can house, educate, employ and provide hospital treatment for what could be millions, once they realise the doors are open, then fine. Somehow I very much doubt that this can be achieved, and don't forget that you will also have to deal with the fact that the immigrants will not all necessarily want to integrate.

Bulk of the Polish people are Christians, and we are talking about children drowning and people fleeing war and persecution. I have no "evidence", but I believe that most Polish people share my view.

I don't think anyone would argue with view that most British folk do not want immigration on this scale, and somehow I find your assertion that the Poles would relish the thought of parts of their cities being totally transformed -and not always for the better - as believable. How many would you want? What happens if you get 5 million and year on year another million arrive, given that you want a system whereby the Poles pay increased taxes. Do you not think that word in Africa would get round - get over to (dare I say it?! it is a joke!) Danzig quick, lads, they are paying for us.

I would be willing to be taxed extra, or even to pay a regular contribution to finance a comprehensive aid program for refugees. If it came to this, I might even house and feed some of those poor people. You see, I have this difficult conversation that I mentioned, waiting for me some time in the future.

Given that there must be some sort of immigration into Poland, I assume that you must already have had this difficult conversation and have a house-full. How do you cope with so many? Or was it just a nice thing to say?Where we might find agreement, by the way, is if a comprehensive aid programme is established in their own countries, but this must go hand in hand with, sadly, a military operation to close off Europe.

Guy Crouchback · Aug 31, 2015

Hastings gull said:
Given that there must be some sort of immigration into Poland, I assume that you must already have had this difficult conversation and have a house-full. How do you cope with so many? Or was it just a nice thing to say?

I see that the biblical allusion was lost on you. Oh, well--never mind. There were many waves of immigration into Poland from countries like Scotland or Netherlands for example (difficult as it is to believe, Poland was once one of the richest countries in Europe). If you meant recent times, then we had a huge influx of Ukrainians--over 500,000 of them are studying or working in Poland at the moment (and luckily for them, they are hard working people and don't need my help with accomodation

).

Don't think that I didn't notice that your post entails a certain measure of cheap irony--I did notice, but I decided to ignore it.

Hastings gull said:
Where we might find agreement, by the way, is if a comprehensive aid programme is established in their own countries

Great idea, but meanwhile children are drowning, so until this comprehensive programme is established something has to be done to help the refugees.

Hastings gull said:
but this must go hand in hand with, sadly, a military operation to close off Europe.

I see... a military operation to close off Europe--in other words we need to create Festung Europa. I think I've heard about this idea before...

Hastings gull · Aug 31, 2015

Guy Crouchback said:
I see that the biblical allusion was lost on you. Oh, well--never mind. There were many waves of immigration to Poland from countries like Scotland or Netherlands for example (difficult as it is to believe, Poland was once one of the richest countries in Europe). If you meant recent times, then we had a huge influx of Ukrainians--over 500,000 of them is studying or working in Poland at the moment (and luckily for them, they are hard working people and don't need my help with accomodation ).

Don't think that I didn't notice that your post entails a certain measure of cheap irony--I did notice, but I decided to ignore it.

Great idea, but meanwhile children are drowning, so until this comprehensive programme is established something has to be done to help the refugees.

I see... a military operation to close off Europe--in other words we need to create Festung Europa. I think I've heard about this idea before...

Yes, who is lecturing whom on cheap irony! No, the biblical illusion was not lost on me; actually I though it was you trying to make yourself holier than thou! Rather like the offer to house them , which you clearly have not done so yet! I did know that thousands of Ukranians were there, as, after 24 years of living in Germany, I have travelled in Poland, one of the relatively few Brits to have done so. Rather like the Poles in the UK, they have integrated well, or at least tolerably so, and most Brits would say that by and large the Poles we have here do work hard and have made a contribution.
But having millions of largely muslims from a different part of the world, as you clearly want, is a totally different story, and in this, I think you need to be rather more receptive to advice. Whether you like it or not, you will be creating areas of the cities which will be transformed and where contact with the indigenous population will be limited, thus increasing mutual suspicion and possibly hostility. The Poles presently living in these areas will feel forced to move away, and then in a relatively poorer country there will also be competition for school places, hospital visits, etc when the locals will be resentful because they will perceive at times, rightly or wrongly, that their treatment will be unfair.

If you feel that all this will be worth it, in an attempt to help, then fine. Obviously this is a very difficult situation, but openly suggesting you open the doors to what could be millions and then assuming everyone agrees with that, is naïve in the extreme. Your comment about Festung Europa is absurd, particularly since Merkel has suggested that they be very generous! Do you seriously think that we should go on accepting millions and millions, because there is at present precious little evidence that the surge to go to Europe is abating. Would there ever be a point when even you would say -sorry, enough is enough.

Guy Crouchback · Aug 31, 2015

Fair enough.

I'm merely saying that it's better to accept those people, and cope with the strain on the infrastructure and all the other things you mention, than to see children drown in the sea. You must surely see that it's the lesser of two evils?

The idea of establishing a comprehensive aid programme in the countries where refugees come from is a great one but it will take many years, so meanwhile we have to open borders and help as many people as we can rather than conduct "a military operation to close off Europe".

Pretty pink fairy · Aug 31, 2015

sir albion said:
dread to think how many illegals are here...a bloke who owns a large company who does checks via the new machines installed for illegals found that in just 9 months he had to let go 780 illegal workers.

Astonishing amount and you do wonder how many are here illegally.

1 million wouldn't be far of the mark :rant:

regards
DR

Pretty pink fairy · Aug 31, 2015

Guy Crouchback said:
Fair enough.

I'm merely saying that it's better to accept those people, and cope with the strain on the infrastructure and all the other things you mention, than to see children drown in the sea. You must surely see that it's the lesser of two evils?

The idea of establishing a comprehensive aid programme in the countries where refugees come from is a great one but it will take many years, so meanwhile we have to open borders and help as many people as we can rather than conduct "a military operation to close off Europe".

THEY KNEW THE RISK, NO POINT IN TRYING TO PUT A GUILT TRIP ON THINGS

regards
DR

Pretty pink fairy · Aug 31, 2015

daveinprague said:
maybe if we stopped bombing the crap out of some of these countries, they wont be so fecking radical.

we

, you don't live here

regards
DR

Guy Crouchback · Aug 31, 2015

Pretty pink fairy said:
THEY KNEW THE RISK, NO POINT IN TRYING TO PUT A GUILT TRIP ON THINGS

3-year-old children knew the risk?

The German media say that between the victims who suffocated so horribly in Austria there was a whole family of six with children, from Syria...they came from Budapest. The traffickers promised them to bring them to Germany, took their money, put them in this LKW, threw the keys away and let them die like animals.This container was air-tight... My friend from Germany tells me that it was one of the few moments the German media broke one of their firm standards, not to show corpses so not to violate the dignity of dead victims...but this time they showed them. You could see where they scratched against the metal till the blood came...you just can't imagine that!

And you say they knew the risk? Jesus Christ, dude...

Pretty pink fairy · Aug 31, 2015

guy crouchback said:
3-year-old children knew the risk?

The german media say that between the victims who suffocated so horribly in austria there was a whole family of six with children, from syria...they came from budapest. The traffickers promised them to bring them to germany, took their money, put them in this lkw, threw the keys away and let them die just like animals.this container was air-tight... My friend from germany tells me that it was one of the few moments the german media broke one of their firm standards, not to show corpses so not to violate the dignity of dead victims...but this time they showed them. You could see where they scratched against the metal till the blood came...you just can't imagine that!

And you say they knew the risk? Jesus christ, dude...

the parents did :facepalm:

as i said it's a risk that some people want to take, unfortunately these things happen, THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE OF IT

regards
DR

Guy Crouchback · Aug 31, 2015

Pretty pink fairy said:
it's a risk that some people want to take, unfortunately these things happen, THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE OF IT

Monstrous...

I refuse to believe that you really think that.

Pretty pink fairy · Aug 31, 2015

guy crouchback said:
monstrous...

I refuse to believe that you really think that.

live in denial then
regards
DR

Albumen · Aug 31, 2015

Pretty pink fairy said:
the parents did as i said it's a risk that some people want to take, unfortunately these things happen, THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE OF IT
regards
DR

Dear me.

Nibble · Aug 31, 2015

Pretty pink fairy said:
the parents did as i said it's a risk that some people want to take, unfortunately these things happen, THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE OF IT
regards
DR

Human children are washing up dead on beaches. You sir, are total scum.

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