General Election 2015

HOFNSKIN · Apr 19, 2015

Was reading something the other day that struck a chord with me about why we still persist in viewing everything in the binary terms of 'left' and 'right'. Putting everything in such simple terms just categorises and divides people. Does everyone have to be one or the other? Can you not, for example, have strong views on protecting the environment and also advocate a strict policy on immigration? Or is that just too confusing for some people to grasp?

If anything, it would be more helpful to see things in terms of 'up' and 'down' on the issues I am interested in.

Also, does our current system need to 'get with the times' a little bit? All that blaming each other, disagreeing with each other and the ludicrous adversarial shouting matches that pass as 'debate' in Parliament every week. It's no wonder normal people get apathetic. Do politicians behave like that in other civilised Western European and Anglo-Saxon democracies? Couldn't all that energy be better used in other ways?

Westdene Seagull · Apr 19, 2015

Herr Tubthumper said:
Given his performance this morning it's easy to see why the public are turning away from an angry tetchy Cameron to Ed Miliband.

Remind me, is this the same Ed Miliband that was :

> Minister for Energy that introduced green subsidies on all our energy bills thus increasing the cost of living but now claims that the cost of living is too high ?
> Or maybe he's the same Ed Miliband who was part of a Labour government that took us into an illegal war ?
> Or indeed the same Ed Miliband who was part of a government who suggested Saddam Hussein had WMDs ?
> Or part of the same government that PROMISED a referendum on Lisbon Treaty but lied ?
> The same Ed Miliband that tries to be 'one of the people' but has at least double the kitchens most of us have ?
> The same puppet that turns to camera and can't resist a 'I tell the people at home' idiotic phrase ?

Hmmm .... great PM material .... not !

cunning fergus · Apr 19, 2015

Stumpy Tim said:
Apologies for the delay in responding as you ask a fair question. My problem isn't about trusting the people to make the right decision, it's more than that. Membership of the EU is a very complicated issue - one that I don't think I know enough about to make a proper decision. I would be in the "In" camp because all the major parties, apart from UKIP, support it and they're paid to understand all the issues. But that's not my main concern.

My problem is that I think an EU referendum wouldn't end up being debated. The very public debate will one on nationalism and immigration. Immigration is one very small part of EU membership, but it will dominate. This worries me hugely as I personally think the atmosphere in the UK will become very toxic & race will play a part. That troubles me greatly, and part of that comes from me being in a mixed race marriage with mixed race children.

It's not that complicated, it's about who you want to have executive power over this country and how you want to be governed.

If you want decisions made by individuals who are unelected by the UK electorate, then it's easy, stay in and experience more of the same.

Your point about immigration is important in that regard because immigration is an issue now because of exactly the prevailing governance dynamic I have explained above.......i.e. there is nothing the electorate can do about it, because only one of the political parties is prepared to do anything about it.

Many issues we deal with in the UK are merely symptoms of this underlying problem, immigration is just one.

In some ways of course the EU may well collapse from within anyway, it's not getting much traction on the news but Greece is once again heading towards the EZ exit, hence Friday's jittery markets.

There are plenty of moving parts........

ROSM · Apr 19, 2015

Westdene Seagull said:
Remind me, is this the same Ed Miliband that was :

> Minister for Energy that introduced green subsidies on all our energy bills thus increasing the cost of living but now claims that the cost of living is too high ?
> Or maybe he's the same Ed Miliband who was part of a Labour government that took us into an illegal war ?
> Or indeed the same Ed Miliband who was part of a government who suggested Saddam Hussein had WMDs ?
> Or part of the same government that PROMISED a referendum on Lisbon Treaty but lied ?
> The same Ed Miliband that tries to be 'one of the people' but has at least double the kitchens most of us have ?
> The same puppet that turns to camera and can't resist a 'I tell the people at home' idiotic phrase ?

Hmmm .... great PM material .... not !

He didn't become an mp until 2005 and the war in Iraq started in 2003. Lisbon treaty signed by his brother in 2007. The 'promise' of a referendum if youbwant call it thay was made prior to him.being elected

So green levy on energy bills and number of.kitchens seems to be your big bugbear. One is irrelevant and the other I support

Meade's Ball · Apr 19, 2015

ROSM said:
He didn't become an mp until 2005 and the war in Iraq started in 2003. Lisbon treaty signed by his brother in 2007. The 'promise' of a referendum if youbwant call it thay was made prior to him.being elected

So green levy on energy bills and number of.kitchens seems to be your big bugbear. One is irrelevant and the other I support

A multikitchenophile eh. You sicken me.

Herr Tubthumper · Apr 19, 2015

Westdene Seagull said:
The same Ed Miliband that tries to be 'one of the people' but has at least double the kitchens most of us have ?

Politics of envy :lolol:

Flex Your Head · Apr 19, 2015

ROSM said:
One is irrelevant and the other I support

How is having at least double the number of kitchens as me irrelevant for a potential future PM? It means he's probably got a bigger house than I have.

Surely no-one in their right mind could vote for someone like that?

cunning fergus · Apr 19, 2015

Flex Your Head said:
How is having at least double the number of kitchens as me irrelevant for a potential future PM? It means he's probably got a bigger house than I have.

Surely no-one in their right mind could vote for someone like that?

That's fair enough, however this is the man who is creating the narrative for the electorate that he understands the lives of normal British working class families. I would wager that not many of that normal British working class families have 2 let alone 3 kitchens.

In the grand scheme it's puerile, and I would rather the debate was on policies, however when his colleagues like Harriet Harman engage in the same he is merely reaping what he and his party has sown.

It is a detail of course, but I am interested in how the Milibands were left a couple of properties when their Marxist Dad Adolf died...........I mean he was a renown Marxist but yet he squared that ideological circle by "owning property".

Then again some pigs did walk on two legs didn't they..........

Hampster Gull · Apr 19, 2015

Kevlar said:
that is the theory but the reality is different
the uk like most countries do run structural deficits
and have done for over 400 years
generation after generation's governments have run deficits
there is no paying the stock of debt back
it is not just Greece that can not pay off the stock of debt
nor can UK USA not even Germany
to believe otherwise is to believe the last 400 years have not existed
and remember the uk ran up a larger govt sector debt to GDP ratio
even when there was a gold standard which provided some kind of restraint on sovereign monetary
power.
Monetary sovereign governments do not default
defaults are for countries like Argentina when they borrowed dollars
and their central bank does not have power to create US dollars
or Greece who have joined a currency union and no longer have the backing
of their own central bank.
There was that "joke"left by a labour treasury spokesmen
that the money has run out .
but it hasn't has it
indeed the coalition has been able to run more deficit in 5 years than the previous
13 years under labour.
why hasn't the money run out ?
because treasury spending is an instruction to the nationalized
Bank of England the issue of government bonds to account for
the gap between spending and revenue is just smoke and mirrors

I have never talked about paying off the debt as clearly economies grow which enables financing of debt. Debt is fine if managed sensibly. Again, i have never said money will run out as we canprint, as we are now. That doesnt mean there are no consequences to this aporoach,thre are many examples, you have named jsut a couple. By the way our deficits and debt was one of the main contributing facotrs to losing the empire and a slow and painful devaluation of our currency and therefore our wealth. I believe, as do many other economists, that part of that is running surpluses as well as deficits. I think you are completely deluded in how to manage an economy but thankfully your not in power. I see even Labour now seeking to address the imbalance, although i dont believe them in practice.

Again though, what is your source for the statement that 9 out of 10 years we have run annual deficits for 400 years. I never got a response on that before.

beorhthelm · Apr 19, 2015

ROSM said:
So green levy on energy bills and number of.kitchens seems to be your big bugbear. One is irrelevant and the other I support

assuming you're not supporting multiple kitchen ownership, even if you agree with the engery levies and taxes on principle, would you not agree its hypocritical for the minister who brough them in to be complaining about energy prices? the levies added to houshold bills amount to several times more than the companies profits on most years until recently, but you dont hear about that.

Hampster Gull · Apr 19, 2015

cunning fergus said:
It's not that complicated, it's about who you want to have executive power over this country and how you want to be governed.

If you want decisions made by individuals who are unelected by the UK electorate, then it's easy, stay in and experience more of the same.

Your point about immigration is important in that regard because immigration is an issue now because of exactly the prevailing governance dynamic I have explained above.......i.e. there is nothing the electorate can do about it, because only one of the political parties is prepared to do anything about it.

Many issues we deal with in the UK are merely symptoms of this underlying problem, immigration is just one.

In some ways of course the EU may well collapse from within anyway, it's not getting much traction on the news but Greece is once again heading towards the EZ exit, hence Friday's jittery markets.

There are plenty of moving parts........

I agree its not that difficult. Its no more difficult than determining which party you want to govern the UK. It is in the interest of some to make it complex, to keep the technocrats in charge. The more people are blindsided on this the more the political unelected elite can run things as they wish. I am pro europe but also pro choice and its shocking what has happened with little engagement.

Ernest · Apr 19, 2015

Latest poll [MENTION=409]Herr Tubthumper[/MENTION] , just in case [MENTION=36]Titanic[/MENTION] forgets

Latest YouGov poll (18 - 19 Apr):
LAB - 35% (-1)
CON - 34% (+1)
UKIP - 13% (-)
LDEM - 8% (-1)
GRN - 5% (-)

Hampster Gull · Apr 19, 2015

Ernest said:
Latest poll [MENTION=409]Herr Tubthumper[/MENTION] , just in case [MENTION=36]Titanic[/MENTION] forgets

Latest YouGov poll (18 - 19 Apr):
LAB - 35% (-1)
CON - 34% (+1)
UKIP - 13% (-)
LDEM - 8% (-1)
GRN - 5% (-)

Is this one an outlier or not this time &#55357;&#56842;

Hampster Gull · Apr 19, 2015

Kevlar said:
that is the theory but the reality is different
the uk like most countries do run structural deficits
and have done for over 400 years
generation after generation's governments have run deficits
there is no paying the stock of debt back
it is not just Greece that can not pay off the stock of debt
nor can UK USA not even Germany
to believe otherwise is to believe the last 400 years have not existed
and remember the uk ran up a larger govt sector debt to GDP ratio
even when there was a gold standard which provided some kind of restraint on sovereign monetary
power.
Monetary sovereign governments do not default
defaults are for countries like Argentina when they borrowed dollars
and their central bank does not have power to create US dollars
or Greece who have joined a currency union and no longer have the backing
of their own central bank.
There was that "joke"left by a labour treasury spokesmen
that the money has run out .
but it hasn't has it
indeed the coalition has been able to run more deficit in 5 years than the previous
13 years under labour.
why hasn't the money run out ?
because treasury spending is an instruction to the nationalized
Bank of England the issue of government bonds to account for
the gap between spending and revenue is just smoke and mirrors

You should read "When Money Dies; the nightmare of the Weimar hyper-inflation". Its an excellent read and quite sad how many people suffered from the inability to pay off debt (however fair or unfair) and the incompetent government response and the toll it took on the German people. A monetary soverign goverment brought to its knees. Money didnt run out, it became worthless. One dollar was worth something like 4,200,000,000,000 marks Germany became a barter economy. This is one of the fundamental reasons thry run their economy in the way they do now.

We are a million miles from this but its not theory.

ROSM · Apr 20, 2015

beorhthelm said:
assuming you're not supporting multiple kitchen ownership, even if you agree with the engery levies and taxes on principle, would you not agree its hypocritical for the minister who brough them in to be complaining about energy prices? the levies added to houshold bills amount to several times more than the companies profits on most years until recently, but you dont hear about that.

Energy companies have used the green levy as a smokescree. When you say 'until recently' i think you mean since 2011 and it's that 4 year period of not passing on reductions and acceleration of prices that needs robbery coconsidered at a time of zero growth in wages and increased poverty

Herr Tubthumper · Apr 20, 2015

An early start for me, but what a nice way to start the week [MENTION=1416]Ernest[/MENTION]?

Latest YouGov / The Sun results 19th April - Con 34%, Lab 35%, LD 8%, UKIP 13%, GRN 5%; APP -10

pastafarian · Apr 20, 2015

Herr Tubthumper said:
An early start for me, but what a nice way to start the week [MENTION=1416]Ernest[/MENTION]?

Latest YouGov / The Sun results 19th April - Con 34%, Lab 35%, LD 8%, UKIP 13%, GRN 5%; APP -10

really? ....you are rejoicing that your party has a 1% lead in one pole.....surely you should be asking why the labour party policy has failed across the nation to persuade people to vote for them in massive numbers

Greyrun · Apr 20, 2015

Mr Schaeuble the GERMAN finance minister said"he was full of respect for what the Chancellor has achieved, the UK and the UK economy has done a wonderful job the last couple of years" he added"The UK and George Osborne has a very good plan for the future I am very much in favour of what has been achieved and what has been forecast".A good start to the week from someone whos opinion like Christine Lagarde counts.

beorhthelm · Apr 20, 2015

ROSM said:
Energy companies have used the green levy as a smokescree. When you say 'until recently' i think you mean since 2011 and it's that 4 year period of not passing on reductions and acceleration of prices that needs robbery coconsidered at a time of zero growth in wages and increased poverty

the energy companies barely mention it. and while they've risen prices and made increasing profits in the past few years, the previous 4 where largly reporting losses (hence daft out of context headlines on hundreds % rises). that fact is even to today, the green levies contribute more to average bills than energy company profits, and a price freeze wouldnt reduce bills when suspension or removal of a levy would.

Herr Tubthumper · Apr 20, 2015

pastafarian said:
really? ....you are rejoicing that your party has a 1% lead in one pole.....surely you should be asking why the labour party policy has failed across the nation to persuade people to vote for them in massive numbers

1-0, 10-0, they're both victories. Is this the best you can do?

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