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[Politics] Brexit

If there was a second Brexit referendum how would you vote?


  • Total voters
    1,081


Baker lite

Banned
Mar 16, 2017
6,309
in my house
Corbyn is absolutely right that no deal must come off the table in any Brexit negotiations.
No deal benefits nobody apart from a few City speculators - who of course are often Tory party donors.
Is that the reason May won’t rule it out I wonder?

Millions which could be spent on the NHS and giving starving kids enough to eat now being wasted on fake 'no deal preparations' like a crap artificial traffic jam at Dover.
The WI could make a better jam than that.
Unbelievable.

Some of the money we have given to the Indian and Chinese space programs could go towards “starving kids”.



On our way.
 


neilbard

Hedging up
Oct 8, 2013
6,245
Tyringham
Corbyn is absolutely right that no deal must come off the table in any Brexit negotiations.
No deal benefits nobody apart from a few City speculators - who of course are often Tory party donors.
Is that the reason May won’t rule it out I wonder?

Millions which could be spent on the NHS and giving starving kids enough to eat now being wasted on fake 'no deal preparations' like a crap artificial traffic jam at Dover.
The WI could make a better jam than that.
Unbelievable.

The WI could make a better fist of running the Tories & Labour. :shrug:
 


Rodney Thomas

Well-known member
May 2, 2012
1,569
Ελλάδα
He used the word 'members', because the point he was responding to was a (massively incorrect) claim about Labour party MEMBERS

:shrug:

People seem unable to follow a conversation/debate when it comes to Brexit. I can't work out whether its down to blinkeredness, ignorance or convenience.

(FYI this it not aimed at [MENTION=2743]Mellor 3 Ward 4[/MENTION] but merely something I believe to be happening)
 


attila

1997 Club
Jul 17, 2003
2,244
South Central Southwick
So where do we go from here?

Everything in Parliament is in stasis. There’s no majority for anything except, bizarrely a continuation of the Tories’ inept, hapless government - thanks to the support of the DUP, MPs for the politics and culture of 1690, which says it all.

Corbyn didn't win his vote of no confidence: he didn't think he would, neither did anyone else. At this point we have reached the position set out and voted on at Labour conference, which is, in the absence of a general election, for Labour to call for a second referendum.

Despite doing hundreds of gigs on its territory and feeling thoroughly 'European' I have no love for the EU as a sociopolitical bloc for reasons expressed many times and understand why a majority voted to leave. I campaigned for No in 1975 though not quite old enough to vote. I didn’t support the second referendum and support a third one even less (though you could argue - best of three) �� We are a representative democracy and should have remained so.

But the prospect of months or years of deadlock, paralysis, the abjugation of meaningful civil legislative government and thus of the opportunity to oppose the Tories’ destructive policies leads me to the conclusion that we must look for a way out by finding a majority to go forward. The only extant majority, apart for the one which will keep these lemmings in power, is for a second referendum. I don’t want one, but I honestly can’t see an alternative.

I totally accept that some people will see that as an abject betrayal, and I can’t argue with that. But many more will breathe a sigh of relief that there is a way out. And when the most vociferous criers of ‘traitors’ are often those who would be content to see their fellow countrymen reduced to penury and countless businesses fold to bring about their 4% majority dream - and in extreme cases are actual working class people who attack picket lines - I think they should take a long, hard look at themselves too. If we’re going to throw the word ‘traitor’ about - and we shouldn’t, we really shouldn’t - it works both ways.

And although it is true that a minority of those who voted Leave are working class Labour supporters in northern towns, the majority are mainly elderly Tory voters from the shires. I saw the huge queue in our polling station on the day, turned to my wife and said ‘It’s a vote to leave’. I knew at that very moment.

The crucial thing is to find a way out of this mess. I don’t like it, but I can see no other. Most crucially, it is the policy supported at Labour conference. Corbyn has always said that he will listen to the membership, and, albeit with grave misgivings (less grave than those for any other outcome) I think he should. But the whole thing is obscene and Cameron and his cronies should be in the stocks for foisting it on us.
 


The Clamp

Well-known member
NSC Patreon
Jan 11, 2016
24,272
West is BEST
Brexit must be behind this then.

June 2018: UK attracts £2.3bn in tech investments and 1,600 new jobs
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44452444

June 2018: Salesforce commits to $2.5bn UK investment ahead of No 10 meeting
https://www.bmmagazine.co.uk/news/salesforce-invests-2-5bn-in-uk/

September 2018: INEOS is to invest £60 million in the UK to expand production at its Grangemouth site
https://www.ineos.com/news/ineos-gr...to-expand-production-at-its-grangemouth-site/

December 2018: UCB to invest £1bn into UK under life sciences sector deal
http://www.pharmatimes.com/news/ucb_to_invest_1bn_into_uk_under_life_sciences_sector_deal_1272053

I'm sure you will now tell me that any positive investment news is despite Brexit, and any negative investment news is because of it.

Sorry but you can't have it both ways.

I’m sure they did consider Brexit. Certain of it. They obviously came to the conclusion that they will be okay. I haven’t read the links though as I’m on a bus.
 








Thunder Bolt

Ordinary Supporter
Yes, you paint a picture that is realistic. So ending free movement and choosing who we need is a benefit but the over supply of the workforce will end because it holds down wages.

EU = uncontrolled immigration, anyone can come and steal jobs from low skilled British citizens which in turn lowers their wages. Low skilled migrants from the EU, either move their familes here, start a family here and claim benefits. While others send part of their wages and benefits back to their family at home. They cost us money by not paying as much tax, claiming benefits and being a drain on our public services. Unless they are high skilled and a great value to us, i.e. a nurse, we don't want them to arrive and stay. We can still have a scheme for people to come and work on the farms.

The deal that was rejected last Monday was for the limit to be £30K, so that rules out nurses, physiotherepists and other valued health workers.

The Home Office cannot cope at the moment and have been deporting legal immigrants as per the Windrush scandal so how on earth do you think they will cope with all the applications that will come in after Brexit?
We are 42,000 nurses short and 12,000 doctors short right now, in the NHS.
 




Mr Banana

Tedious chump
Aug 8, 2005
5,481
Standing in the way of control
They cost us money by not paying as much tax, claiming benefits and being a drain on our public services. Unless they are high skilled and a great value to us, i.e. a nurse, we don't want them to arrive and stay. We can still have a scheme for people to come and work on the farms.

The data suggests that low-skilled immigrants are not a drain on public finances. They are also vital to several industries other than agriculture.
 


vegster

Sanity Clause
May 5, 2008
27,866
It is our productivity that is a problem. The introduction of AI will allow us to manufacture products at a competitive price.

When we are in control of our own future we will be able to turn around the economy, just like Trump has managed to do in the same global market we all live in. I know, posters from the left side of the argument, will be distraught reading this bit.... BUT we all trade in the same place and we have to adapt if we want to prosper. Ultimately it is our failure to adapt to the global market that is holding back our biggest potential for growth. We seem to amble along adding to our population which in turn gives us a slow growth in GDP.

It is sad you only see our nation as being incapable of building a more prosperous future. It is a common way of thinking for people now. Such subtle negative thinking, stops people from reaching their full potential.

Around 2% of the population (Named as 2%er's by Andy Cope in his book, The Art of being Brilliant) don't just have ideas, they implement them. We need to encourage more entrepreneurship and build a nation together we can be proud of.

The death of the high street is down to the growth of online shopping. A global problem.

We do not invest in new machinery and tech as our economy is geared up to make the maximum amount of money in the short term, everything is designed to keep costs down now rather than look to the future. That's why the majority of jobs pay barely minimum wage, the death of the High Street comes from those people having to shave whatever they can off a price by buying online, this also is the reason why the discount supermarkets are thriving.

My company is a series of franchises ultimately owned by people in the Channel Islands, Wages are poor because there is a tug of war between the offshore head office and the franchise directors each of whom try to gain the maximum they can out of the business at the expense of new machinery and equipment. Brexit will not change this one iota although a bad outcome such as the value of Pound falling will give them a good reason to tell us all to tighten our belts and work harder, yet again. The owners are in the Rich List with assets of over £1 billion btw.
 


btnbelle

New member
Apr 26, 2017
1,438
I work in a team that develops some of this stuff, so yes, I have heard of it. It can be done cheaper elsewhere which is why a huge amount of university students at R&D unis such as Warwick are Chinese students being government funded. They've got manufactoring. Now they are developing the brains behind it.

In the long run, It's not Brexit we need to worry about.

You sound negative about our potential for the future. You are painting a picture, a very real picture for everyone, of how the world works....

For this reason we need to be more like Trump who manages to create strong growth in the global market without being in the EU.

People may not like Trump, (I am not a fan of all he has to offer) but he knows how to turn around an economy.

So in the long run, we can prosper in the global market but we need to do things differently....
 






Goldstone1976

We Got Calde in!!
Helpful Moderator
NSC Patreon
Apr 30, 2013
13,763
Herts
Corbyn is absolutely right that no deal must come off the table in any Brexit negotiations.
No deal benefits nobody apart from a few City speculators - who of course are often Tory party donors.
Is that the reason May won’t rule it out I wonder?

Millions which could be spent on the NHS and giving starving kids enough to eat now being wasted on fake 'no deal preparations' like a crap artificial traffic jam at Dover.
The WI could make a better jam than that.
Unbelievable.

Given the only consensus that seems to be able to be reached in the House is that no deal is not an option, at this point I just don't see any viable alternative to a further referendum, however unpalatable the first one was (why have elected representatives at all if they're not empowered to make the most complex decisions?) and however unpalatable a second one would also undoubtedly be. I don't understand why Corbyn isn't now calling for a further referendum, both because it makes political sense for him to do so and, more importantly, the Labour Conference envisaged exactly the scenario we now face and voted that the policy should then be to call for a second referendum.
 


Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
29,719
Hove
You sound negative about our potential for the future. You are painting a picture, a very real picture for everyone, of how the world works....

For this reason we need to be more like Trump who manages to create strong growth in the global market without being in the EU.

People may not like Trump, (I am not a fan of all he has to offer) but he knows how to turn around an economy.

So in the long run, we can prosper in the global market but we need to do things differently....

:lolol:

As revealing an opinion as you could ever wish to see. Well done for being so straightforward about it, gave me a chuckle any road.
 




btnbelle

New member
Apr 26, 2017
1,438
The deal that was rejected last Monday was for the limit to be £30K, so that rules out nurses, physiotherepists and other valued health workers.

The Home Office cannot cope at the moment and have been deporting legal immigrants as per the Windrush scandal so how on earth do you think they will cope with all the applications that will come in after Brexit?
We are 42,000 nurses short and 12,000 doctors short right now, in the NHS.

Nurses will be allowed, we will have the ability to choose to allow people when there is exceptional need. We will have control and it will create jobs at the Home office.
 


Westdene Seagull

aka Cap'n Carl Firecrotch
NSC Patreon
Oct 27, 2003
20,938
The arse end of Hangleton
Lets hope so..... House prices are such a huge multiple of earnings now it`s almost impossible to save deposit.

Indeed. At least [MENTION=15363]Plooks[/MENTION] will now have a positive to take out of Brexit after his bitching about old people preventing him getting on the property ladder.
 


Thunder Bolt

Ordinary Supporter
Nurses will be allowed, we will have the ability to choose to allow people when there is exceptional need. We will have control and it will create jobs at the Home office.

Ok so we let in nurses but on that criteria, European footballers are not needed.

Btw over 3000 European nurses have returned to their own countries since the Referendum because they no longer feel welcome here.

By the ability to choose, I take it you mean the Home Office, who like all the Civil Servants have been completely decimated (actually that means a 10th when it is more like 25% reduction) by austerity.
 


vegster

Sanity Clause
May 5, 2008
27,866
I'm certainly not blaming Corbyn for this mess, but I still maintain he is not acting in the interests of the country by not responding like the bigger man to this request from our dreadful Prime Minister. What is stop him talking to her and telling her in private at the meeting that "no deal" must be off the table.

And I repeat, how come it's OK to talk to terrorist organisations without conditions but not the PM of this country? Answer me that.

I have no knowledge of what preconditions Corbyn has before meeting anyone but it should be remembered that ultimately you eventually have to talk and negotiate with people you don't agree with ( Terrorist/ Freedom Fighter ) or nothing ever goes forward. Mrs Thatcher famously said " We don't negotiate with terrorists " although privately there were back channel negotiations and talks going on, how the IRA managed to overcome their disgust at Thatcher and talk to her is a triumph of hope over experience, but something had to change or the impasse would never be broken.
 




btnbelle

New member
Apr 26, 2017
1,438
Agree re shopping however

Productivity is down to many things . . . this country has traditionally built high end quality products, that takes skill time and costs real money . . .hi-fi is a good example, and racing cars. . . . . the high productivity rate comes from mass production, low quality materials and produce and low land/material & labour costs, all of it working against the western worlds attempts to curb global warming and sustainability.

Yes you are right. unfortunately we need to start living in the real world and look at boosting our market share.

We should not pat ourselves on the back for growth when it is simply earnt for providing for more people via immigration. The trick is to provide them with products in their homeland and bring their money back to our economy.
 


dingodan

New member
Feb 16, 2011
10,080
I’m sure they did consider Brexit. Certain of it. They obviously came to the conclusion that they will be okay. I haven’t read the links though as I’m on a bus.

Right, so you are saying that these positive decisions were taken despite Brexit.

& The negative decision of Hitachi was taken because of it.

Typical.
 



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