[Politics] Brexit

Jim in the West · Oct 14, 2016

Green Cross Code Man said:
It was always going to take years and years. You are one of the many people on here clamouring for speed etc and the fact that you had hope that things may be wrapped up and all in time for Christmas or something ridiculous is beyond belief.

As for your last paragraph. You want things to get really bad? Are you mad? No I retract that, the question doesn't need answering.

I strongly believe leaving is the right option, but I respect people who choose to stay who had equally strong beliefs. You are just a nasty person who just because you don't like what you see, want unhappiness vested upon society as a vote didn't go your way. Perhaps you were never told 'no' as a child?

Possibly I didn't explain myself - I never thought it would be quick - if you look back at my pre-Referendum posts, I was saying it would take 10 - 20 years. My point was that I now want more pain - but for a short period, to try to bring some sense to the Brexiteers who are leading us in to an economic nightmare. My hope is that, if things DO get very bad, enough people will see the light. I don't wish ill on anyone. And, by the way, I'm quite a reasonable chap

Jim in the West · Oct 14, 2016

pastafarian said:
what about all the less well off you keep saying are suffering because of brexit? wont it get really really bad for them as well in your hope things deteriorate.
quite obvious you dont give a toss about them at all

It's pretty clear that Davis, Fox and Johnson couldn't give a toss. My point all along has been that the toffs at the top who are leading us into this mess will be OK. The average man/woman in the street will, however, be much worse off. That's why I want things to change! I think we're on the same side (in our general desire to see the little guy OK) - but you have placed your trust in Brexit, whilst I am a Remainer. We will probably never agree on that one!

Green Cross Code Man · Oct 14, 2016

Jim in the West said:
Possibly I didn't explain myself - I never thought it would be quick - if you look back at my pre-Referendum posts, I was saying it would take 10 - 20 years. My point was that I now want more pain - but for a short period, to try to bring some sense to the Brexiteers who are leading us in to an economic nightmare. My hope is that, if things DO get very bad, enough people will see the light. I don't wish ill on anyone. And, by the way, I'm quite a reasonable chap

Okay, I can accept that you say you explained yourself clumsily.

However, hope is a free choice. Here's an idea, why not hope that the people representing us, actually do a good job and the country doesn't suffer and we all prosper.

Now I haven't particular confidence in that eventuality, but I have hope.

alfredmizen · Oct 14, 2016

Jim in the West said:
It's pretty clear that Davis, Fox and Johnson couldn't give a toss. My point all along has been that the toffs at the top who are leading us into this mess will be OK. The average man/woman in the street will, however, be much worse off. That's why I want things to change! I think we're on the same side (in our general desire to see the little guy OK) - but you have placed your trust in Brexit, whilst I am a Remainer. We will probably never agree on that one!

You're clearly using the let's paint all tories as toffs gambit , i wont argue that Johnson is a toff , but both Davis and Fox were brought up in council houses .

larus · Oct 14, 2016

Pavilionaire said:
How about looking at a real situation? I have a client with a 65% English customer base that is selling a product in Euros. A year ago a Euro10,000 order was costing his English customers £7,400; that same Euro 10,000 order is now costing £9,000.

Unsurprisingly, he's finding his customers are not willing to pay £9,000 for the same product - an increase of 22% - so his margins are being squeezed as he is forced to lower his prices. This has all sorts of knock-on effects re investment, buying stock for future resale, recruitment of staff etc.

And this scenario is going on now for any business that imports goods/services for resale as the £ tanks.

Surely the question is, 'is the value of the pound now a true reflection of its' worth, or was the value before the "hissy fit" of the market the true value?". There are reports from the last couple of years stating that the pound was overvalued by circa 15%. So, this correction is probably long overdue, however, it's been triggered because markets don't like uncertainty. This reaction is either based on fundamentals or emotion. It sounds to me like there is too much emotion (and rejoicing in the doom-mongering) from the Remainers, rather than a realisation that the fundamentals of the economy haven't changed.

Yes, there is uncertainty, but the same could be said for the Euro coutries, with huge on-going issues in Italy with their banks, Portugal rolling back the reforms, France with the far right and Greece (say no more). Add to that the "dissent" from Hungary/Poland over the diktats from Brussels, it's not all hunky-dory on the continent. And that doesn't take into account the rise of AfD in Germany either and Merkle losing her air of invincibility.

This will blow over on the next few weeks as we've seen many times before. Markets are not sensible.

larus · Oct 14, 2016

Jim in the West said:
Possibly I didn't explain myself - I never thought it would be quick - if you look back at my pre-Referendum posts, I was saying it would take 10 - 20 years. My point was that I now want more pain - but for a short period, to try to bring some sense to the Brexiteers who are leading us in to an economic nightmare. My hope is that, if things DO get very bad, enough people will see the light. I don't wish ill on anyone. And, by the way, I'm quite a reasonable chap

The only economic pain we will suffer is if our FRIENDS in Europe chose to PUNISH us for having the audacity to want self determination. The vitriolic language espoused by Holland, Junker etc. is astounding.

If the EU is such a good club, why should they need to punish someone who wants to leave? Fear is never a good tactic as people eventually say "Up yours".

nicko31 · Oct 14, 2016

larus said:
The only economic pain we will suffer is if our FRIENDS in Europe chose to PUNISH us for having the audacity to want self determination. The vitriolic language espoused by Holland, Junker etc. is astounding.

If the EU is such a good club, why should they need to punish someone who wants to leave? Fear is never a good tactic as people eventually say "Up yours".

What about the vitriolic language they had to suffer from that tw*t Farage?

SeagullTim · Oct 14, 2016

larus said:
The only economic pain we will suffer is if our FRIENDS in Europe chose to PUNISH us for having the audacity to want self determination. The vitriolic language espoused by Holland, Junker etc. is astounding.

If the EU is such a good club, why should they need to punish someone who wants to leave? Fear is never a good tactic as people eventually say "Up yours".

Because if we get a really good deal other countries will start thinking about leaving, I would have thought.

Two Professors · Oct 14, 2016

Pavilionaire said:
He IS a British supplier, supplying accommodation and hospitality for a European sporting event.

Maybe he should try skimming a bit less off the top then,or look for a proper job.I'm sure, if it's so vital,the accomodation and hospitality will be sold by somebody.If his current supplier won't negogiate,then find another one!

sir albion · Oct 14, 2016

The EU isn't a special thing it's a middle man that makes plenty of money for its wonderful staff and nothing more.It doesn't stop countries from declining into severe debt and doesn't help countries with severe poverty.It doesn't stop countries from going into recessions and it doesn't bring you out of a recession.
The best thing for the whole of Europe is to take a step back and scrap the whole European Union rubbish once and for all.Every country is more than capable of trading with eachother like we used to instead of an organisation that pays its staff big bucks and cost us all £137 million a month just to do so.

This country has big problems and it may take a long long time to get back to basics wether we're in the EU or not...these issues won't go away!!
We've seen tough tough times in previous recessions and I doubt we'll see anything as bad as those again....Time to get manufacturing big time and let's focus on British stuff and learn to be more self sufficient.Cant keep on buying buying buying from other countries all the time.

Fresh start fresh ideas and the start of something wonderful

fat old seagull · Oct 14, 2016

Jim in the West said:
To be honest, my view has hardened considerably post the Tory Party conference. Before then, I was hoping for a relatively short period of pain, and hoping (against hope) that the process of extricating ourselves from the EU would be much speedier than my instincts told me. However, having listened to the xenophobic rhetoric of May and her crew, and been branded as "a citizen of nowhere", I have realised that this country is being run by a rightwing elite who have no time for the moderate, tolerant middle ground - who, in fact, comprise the majority of the population. Our new leaders have no plan to take us through Brexit ("Brexit means Brexit" is their only mantra). They have complete disdain for parliamentary democracy. They are gradually alienating all but the hard-nosed Mail and Express readers who lap up the constant stream of racist headlines (which are now presented as being "patriotic" or other such nonsense).

My view now is that I want things to get really bad....it is the only way that we can stop the huge train-crash that's facing us, as we seek to turn our back on liberal democracy and the rest of the world. I feel sorry for those struggling to make ends meet - it will get really tough. But we WERE warned. The "experts" told us what to expect, but were roundly ridiculed by the likes of Gove and Farage. .
Sorry if this offends some - it's not meant personally.

These so called experts ....Bank of England Govenor Mark Carney, Stephen Hawking and their ilk can we seriously consider they would be as wise as Farange, Gove, Boris and a whole bunch of other lunatic celebs. :stupid:

When I consider millions in the UK made this decision, and look across the water where millions flock to support Trump. I ask myself whether it possible human brains have been compromised! :shrug:

pb21 · Oct 14, 2016

pastafarian said:
I didnt believe we would be giving 350m a week to The NHS, have never heard a leaver say they did believe it.
The only people ive heard who believed it are remainers who are furious that its not happening.

At least one brexiter on here believed it! I expect many more did too.

dingodan said:
They said that the EU takes 350M from us a week, and by saving that money we can spend it on our priorities, things like the NHS. That's true to be fair.

They said that in the EU we are not allowed to abolish VAT on fuel, outside the EU we would be able to, that's also true.

I don't see how these things qualify as mistruths or misconceptions?

http://www.northstandchat.com/showthread.php?339543-ITV-Referendum-debate/page9

Jim in the West · Oct 14, 2016

larus said:
The only economic pain we will suffer is if our FRIENDS in Europe chose to PUNISH us for having the audacity to want self determination. The vitriolic language espoused by Holland, Junker etc. is astounding.

If the EU is such a good club, why should they need to punish someone who wants to leave? Fear is never a good tactic as people eventually say "Up yours".

They are not planning to punish us - they are just saying that, if we want to leave, then leave, but don't expect any preferential treatment. The problem is that the Brexiteers promised that we'd be able to "have our cake and eat it" (to quote Bojo). From everything that I've read, the EU are being fairly logical - we are just being completely illogical, and at the same time taking every opportunity to abuse the EU and all its leaders. What a great negotiating tactic! We will get what we deserve - nothing. And if the boot was on the other foot (say, the French had voted to leave) we'd be demanding the same thing.

Our chief problem is that we are so unbelievably arrogant that we think the rest of the World (and in particular the EU) owes us a living.

ManOfSussex · Oct 14, 2016

pb21 said:
At least one brexiter on here believed it! I expect many more did too.

http://www.northstandchat.com/showthread.php?339543-ITV-Referendum-debate/page9

That one also admired and would have felt proud if Andrea Leadsom had become PM - http://www.northstandchat.com/showthread.php?340089-Andrea-Leadsom-for-new-PM

:lolol:

Possibly not a fair reflection of all leave voters, per se.

fat old seagull · Oct 14, 2016

larus said:
The only economic pain we will suffer is if our FRIENDS in Europe chose to PUNISH us for having the audacity to want self determination. The vitriolic language espoused by Holland, Junker etc. is astounding.

If the EU is such a good club, why should they need to punish someone who wants to leave? Fear is never a good tactic as people eventually say "Up yours".

Well I can't quite understand how folk don't quite understand that we won't only not get any decent deals from Europe. They WILL punish our audacity. Not fair, I agree. However those that make those decisions make a fat cat living whilst being Euro MPs. If they let the millions in Europe see we have succeeded on our own, in a very few years there will be no EU....and they'd be jobless! Not a likely scenario is it ?

pastafarian · Oct 14, 2016

pb21 said:
At least one brexiter on here believed it! I expect many more did too.

http://www.northstandchat.com/showthread.php?339543-ITV-Referendum-debate/page9

glad you provided the link and not just the quote,gives a chance to read the whole discussion between you and [MENTION=18559]dingodan[/MENTION] ,puts it into context.
its clear he didnt believe the whole 350m was to be spent entirely on The NHS at all like you claim but the money could be used for priorities (plural)
He even clarifies it for you a few posts later.

"No, I think you have erected a strawman. There is a difference between saying that we can save 350M per week, and that will free up resources for our priorities like the NHS, and saying that we can save 350M which we will spend entirely on the NHS. Gove and Borris couldn't promise to spend anything on the NHS, it's not in their remit. They are saying that you (we) will have the money available to spend on things we want to. Probably, for a lot of people, the first suggestion would be the NHS (which needs more money). You know the difference between what was suggested and what you are saying was suggested, and you know it. I think you are being a little misleading and dishonest yourself."

you must have forgotten that part,maybe because he clocked your strawman?

yxee · Oct 14, 2016

Behind Enemy Lines said:
Stop shouting. It was yesterday when I posted. It remains very low. And you're wrong about the indicator. Airports are places where millions of ordinary people ( no doubt millions who voted Leave) change their money or buy Euros or dollars. It is a very good indicator.

It is an indicator that airports are rip-offs, yes. The actual exchange rate has not gone close to parity.

Green Cross Code Man · Oct 14, 2016

nicko31 said:
What about the vitriolic language they had to suffer from that tw*t Farage?

What has that got to do with it? Juncker and Holland have real positions of power in the EU. They are supposed to be statesmen. Instead they behave like spoiled brats. I suppose, being a supporter of the EU, you must like that?

Green Cross Code Man · Oct 14, 2016

fat old seagull said:
Well I can't quite understand how folk don't quite understand that we won't only not get any decent deals from Europe. They WILL punish our audacity. Not fair, I agree. However those that make those decisions make a fat cat living whilst being Euro MPs. If they let the millions in Europe see we have succeeded on our own, in a very few years there will be no EU....and they'd be jobless! Not a likely scenario is it ?

You've just written a great set of reasons to leave and also encourage others to do so as well. You describe a bureaucratic and flawed organisation which is corruptly run for the benefit of the few and at the expense of the common man.

Well done.

Soulman · Oct 14, 2016

fat old seagull said:
Well I can't quite understand how folk don't quite understand that we won't only not get any decent deals from Europe. They WILL punish our audacity. Not fair, I agree. However those that make those decisions make a fat cat living whilst being Euro MPs. If they let the millions in Europe see we have succeeded on our own, in a very few years there will be no EU....and they'd be jobless! Not a likely scenario is it ?

"They WILL punish our audacity"........ seeing as the exports to us from the EU outweighs our exports to them, will they have the audacity to punish us, hopefully we will have the audacity to punish them back.

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