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Jeremy Hunt-v-Junior Doctors.



heathgate

heathgate

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Apr 13, 2015
3,469
BigGully said:
I am not sure anyone is questioning their skills or importance, including the government ...............
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Indeed they are not,.... but it is the only tool that they are using that will be likely to get public sympathy,.... if they start presenting the real reason that they are arguing,... ie money.... then they wouldnt get any sympathy.
 




heathgate

heathgate

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Apr 13, 2015
3,469
Seagull27 said:
And how exactly do you expect this to be workable without any increase in investment?
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Someone needs to do a bit of research on the increases in NHS spending, investment and renewal is at an all time high.
 


seagullwedgee

seagullwedgee

Well-known member
Aug 9, 2005
2,983
Everyone is tired at the end of a working week, which for most people is definitely NOT M-F 9-5.

This tiredness angle is really just their spin on "I'm going to lose at least one Saturday in four with my family" because they've been quite clear to say it's not about the money.

Just get on with it. And dont forget that WE* are paying their wages, and enough is enough, just get on with it.

* those who actually pay income tax and VAT.
 








highflyer

highflyer

Well-known member
Jan 21, 2016
2,435
BigGully said:
Jeeeez any danger of people posted friggin wages and average likely hours worked, holidays and how the timeline of wages increase.

Its all very well telling us what a great job they do, we know that but put some meat on the bones, we can then judge whether its reasonable money and hours and then we can factor in the level of skill, stress etc ......
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Jeeez. Any danger of you spending a couple of minutes on the internet? Hardly secret.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs...d-and-why-are-they-threatening-to-strike.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34475955
http://www.uhs.nhs.uk/Media/suhtide...nceonJuniorDoctorsHours(VoluntaryReading).pdf

In summary:

- They work longer hours than I do
- They already work more weekends and evenings/nights than I do
- On average they earn similar levels of pay (though will probably earn more than I will over a career)
- They do more important work than I do by a factor too high to calculate

I believe that very few doctors are in it for the money.
 


H

HH Brighton

Well-known member
Jul 25, 2003
1,508
Jeremy Hunt a shining example of any **** can be a minister. The bloke that co authored this piece on private insurance to replace the NHS http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...et-replacement-direct-democracy-a6865306.html

Funniest thing is seeing him interviewed the way errs and urrms throughout with his little NHS badge on his suit, funny if it wasn't so stupid. But there is a certain amount of truth in that this was in their manifesto, they won the election (despite what you might think about the system and that only 1 in 4 people voted for them) so therefore they have a mandate to drive it through I suppose. You get what you vote for and the facts are 1 in 4 people thought they were a credible government. Strange to the majority of people I know but it happened.
 


skipper734

skipper734

Registered ruffian
Aug 9, 2008
9,189
Curdridge
DavidinSouthampton said:
I read a letter in the paper a few weeks ago from the wife of a consultant cardiologist. Slightly tongue in cheek, she was saying that her husband had been out a lot one in three weekends over the last however many years saying he was working. She was asking "should I be worried?"


I have a brother-in-law who, until recently, was a consultant general surgeon. I know full well that he was similarly on call i in every three weekends, and on call did actually mean going in every day and not just being available on the other end of a phone. He would also on occasion be doing things on the weekends when he wasn't on call.

In other words, I suggest you check your facts.
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Check my facts? So that it matches your hearsay? I married a Medical Student, supported her all through her Junior Doctor pathway then as a Consultant. During all that we had a Son who spent his Gap year as a Ward Assistant on an Elderly Medical Ward. All this has cost me my Job, my flat and leaving Brighton.
I don't have a Dog in this fight. I could write thousands of words disputing or agreeing with different aspects of the NHS. I have personnel amusing and dangerous episodes of being operated on by Juniors at weekends but I'm to old and life's too short to carry on a discussion with the written word. I really should have stuck to my resolution not to join in.
 




JC Footy Genius

JC Footy Genius

Bringer of TRUTH
Jun 9, 2015
10,568
sahel said:
Very good post. One of the major achievements of the Labour years was an increase in health spending to European averages. This enabled big increases in the pay of NHS employees. That is now being reversed as we spend less and less than our European counterparts. By 2020 public expenditure will be at historic low levels as a proportion of GDP. Do people realise I wonder that that is what they voted for?
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Easy to splash the cash during an economic boom. Are we really spending less and less on health than our European counterparts? We spend more as a percentage of GDP than Spain, Italy, Ireland and countries who appear to spend more mostly have a larger percentage of private health provision so not strictly comparable.

I seem to remember the Conservatives promising to spend more than Labour on the NHS at the last election and Labour saying this was unwise and couldn't be achieved. As far as I'm aware they haven't reneged on this spending commitment. One of the Governments central election messages was ongoing austerity/big cuts in overall public spending to help reduce the deficit. They were elected with a surprise majority and clear mandate. Perhaps people did realise what they were voting for after all.

http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/health-care-spending-compared
 


The Clamp

The Clamp

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Jan 11, 2016
24,529
West is BEST
Tory's are making themselves unelectable. Which is a shame as there's no better alternative unless Corbyn can win round some cynical hearts with his more humane approach to politics. I don't think he will though. It's a kaput system.
 


beorhthelm

beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,310
HH Brighton said:
Jeremy Hunt a shining example of any **** can be a minister. The bloke that co authored this piece on private insurance to replace the NHS
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you mean like France, Germany and all those other countries that everyone want to say have everything so much better? whats funny is, from the article
“We should fund patients, either through the tax system or by way of universal insurance, to purchase health care from the provider of their choice,”
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it sounds suspiciously like how its already funded. whats different is the provision changes from a monolithic organ of the state to a collection of autonomous service providers. its odd that this country cant seem to even begin to consider this, to discuss the possible advantages and disadvantages, its outright rejected at first sight. meanwhile the current system is apparently flawed, creeking at the seems etc. but we cant change it?
 






JC Footy Genius

JC Footy Genius

Bringer of TRUTH
Jun 9, 2015
10,568
beorhthelm said:
you mean like France, Germany and all those other countries that everyone want to say have everything so much better? whats funny is, from the article it sounds suspiciously like how its already funded. whats different is the provision changes from a monolithic organ of the state to a collection of autonomous service providers. its odd that this country cant seem to even begin to consider this, to discuss the possible advantages and disadvantages, its outright rejected at first sight. meanwhile the current system is apparently flawed, creeking at the seems etc. but we cant change it?
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We have a rapidly increasing ageing population and a shrinking tax base combined with ongoing advances in medical Science .The future funding of the NHS will become unaffordable unless some form of private health Insurance element is introduced. Hopefully the public will be persuaded that this is the only long term sensible option and ignore the scaremongering 'evil people want to privatise the NHS' line from the usual suspects.
 


ferris_ferrit

ferris_ferrit

Active member
Feb 1, 2011
101
I'm not sure if it has been mentioned yet, but isn't PFI kind of the main reason there isn't much money to spend on the staff in the NHS? Lots of expensive hospitals built with private money being paid back at higher rates than if they had been purchased with government money. If we stopped doing so many of these schemes and started building our hospitals honestly with government money and on government rates then that might free up some more money to recruit more staff and pay the ones we already have a fair wage for the hours they work.
 






R

ROSM

Well-known member
Dec 26, 2005
6,211
Just far enough away from LDC
ferris_ferrit said:
I'm not sure if it has been mentioned yet, but isn't PFI kind of the main reason there isn't much money to spend on the staff in the NHS? Lots of expensive hospitals built with private money being paid back at higher rates than if they had been purchased with government money. If we stopped doing so many of these schemes and started building our hospitals honestly with government money and on government rates then that might free up some more money to recruit more staff and pay the ones we already have a fair wage for the hours they work.
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The problem is that there were 17 years of no real investment in hospital buildings then a period where investment was needed but with constraints of how much public money could be spent - hence the need for alternative private investment

I agree it has caused more issues than it has solved though
 


The Clamp

The Clamp

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Jan 11, 2016
24,529
West is BEST
I have some knowledge of the world of a paramedic. Traditionally, at the end of your shift an ambulance crew and Paramedics would do an inventory on the equipment/supplies in the ambulance. They would re-stock, tidy and leave the vehicle in perfect condition and ready to go for the next shift. About 6 years ago, in an attempt to cut paramedics hours and not fork out as much they outsourced this task and gave it to the lowest bidder staffed almost entirely by foreign cleaning staff. They did such a laughably poor job of readying the vehicles, puttying lives at risk, that Paramedics ended up having to redo it on their own time, for free.

This was under Labour. No matter what government impliments outsourcing, they will likely go for the cheapest option and mess it up. I believe 6% of the NHS ic currently outsourced to private firms. 4% pre - 2010, 2% post - 2010.
 


highflyer

highflyer

Well-known member
Jan 21, 2016
2,435
ROSM said:
The problem is that there were 17 years of no real investment in hospital buildings then a period where investment was needed but with constraints of how much public money could be spent - hence the need for alternative private investment

I agree it has caused more issues than it has solved though
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Self imposed and unnecessary constraints some might suggest. A false economy pursued for ideological reasons. In the long term the cost is far higher to the public purse. Privatised profits, nationalised risks.
 




D

Deleted member 22389

Guest
JC Footy Genius said:
We have a rapidly increasing ageing population and a shrinking tax base combined with ongoing advances in medical Science .The future funding of the NHS will become unaffordable unless some form of private health Insurance element is introduced. Hopefully the public will be persuaded that this is the only long term sensible option and ignore the scaremongering 'evil people want to privatise the NHS' line from the usual suspects.
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I'm all for a bit of Private funding because something has to change. Don't know why Private is such a dirty word. Would rather pay a bit more knowing our NHS is looked after, people get paid properly, there are enough staff and nobody is left waiting.
 


trueblue

trueblue

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
10,417
Hove
DavidinSouthampton said:
The description you give makes it sound as if being a doctor is just another job, and not a VOCATION.

I am confident that the vast majority of doctors are in it because they care passionately about what they do and care passionately about the people they are doing it for. The "saving the health service" thing is something they genuinely believe.

And as for the how much they earn and could earn bit, would it occur to you at all:
1. The length and intensity of the training and the cost of financing that. My daughter did 6 years in London, which wasn't exactly cheap from the point of view of student loans, accommodation, tuition fees etc etc.
2. The level of responsibility they actually carry and the stress they are working under. Nowhere else is the expression "life or death decision" more appropriate.
3. The fact that they are very capable people and might, just might, be able to earn more money elsewhere if they went in to banking or something similar, where they could screw the whole world over with their mistakes and come out smelling of roses the other side - possibly unfair to large numbers of decent people who might be in banking.

And it's not only doctors, it's nurses, nurses, paramedics, radiographers, pharmacists and the whole range of other professionals in the NHSwho are overworked and underpaid, to say the least.

I would have to agree that there probably is a lot wrong with the health service that needs addressing, but Jeremy Hunt is maybe not the right person to be doing it.
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Excellent post - particularly relating to the stress levels. And as for the training, from what I can make out, it never really stops. Medicine moves on constantly and, of course, they need to stay up to date. if anybody in society actually can ever deserve a £100k+ salary, then surely it's a consultant who can be genuinely changing lives several times a day. Even the phrase 'junior doctors' seems to confuse people, like they're on some sort of YTS scheme watching the experts in action. These are the people saving our skins, time and again and some numpty can genuinely moan that they earn £45,000 a year for all those skills and split-second decision-making.

From what I can ascertain, the argument about a fully 7 day NHS is that it cannot possibly operate at a safe level considering resources are already over-stretched. It's not just about operations but all the pre and post-operative care required and all the back-up that's needed if and when things take an unexpected turn. Right now, the RSCH for instance can barely cope as it is.

I think it's a hard sell for the doctors to get across their arguments when the Government line (such as the so-called pay rise which is more like a restructuring of their salaries) goes unchallenged but I hope for the sake of all of us they do. The idea that the NHS will be so much better if we all just take out insurance with a provider of our choice.... that's got to be a joke right? Some might find it's a superb system, as long as there's never anything wrong with them. Good luck paying the premiums after that.
 


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