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[Finance] If you were given a totally legal way of paying less tax would you take it?

If you were given a totally legal way of paying less tax would you take it?

  • Yes

    Votes: 194 84.3%
  • No

    Votes: 36 15.7%

  • Total voters
    230


Giraffe

VERY part time moderator
Helpful Moderator
NSC Patreon
Aug 8, 2005
26,456
I'm confused by this whole Paradise saga in that it seems to be the rich and famous including her Royal Highness that is getting lambasted rather than those who set the rules in Government and HMRC. Surely if it's legal they haven't done anything wrong have they? It's others to blame for allowing it.

If you could legally pay less tax would you?
 


Westdene Seagull

aka Cap'n Carl Firecrotch
NSC Patreon
Oct 27, 2003
20,938
The arse end of Hangleton
Many of us already do - via ISA's and pension payments. I'm also sure there's many contractors on here that take dividends from their Ltd companies rather than a high salary to reduce their tax liability.

What needs to happen is the government to close the lopholes that allow loans to be taken instead of salary and thus avoiding income tax.
 




pb21

Well-known member
Apr 23, 2010
6,256
Surely if it's legal they haven't done anything wrong have they?

Is something right/wrong only right/wrong because it is legal/illegal?

ISAs are a legitimate item, that have been designed in such a way to be so. Being paid a 'loan' that you never intend to pay back, via an offshore company that only exists to pay you a 'loan' so you don't pay tax, is taking advantage of the system (and regular tax payers like you) in a way it was not indeed to be done. Clever maybe, more mischievous and underhand IMO, but just because it is legal, doesn't mean it is right.

Are you happy to be taken advantage of in this way, bearing in mind the current UK tax revenue would be at least 20% lower if new measures hadn't been put in place over the last 7 years to minimise this underhand behaviour?
 


Mellotron

I've asked for soup
Jul 2, 2008
31,730
Brighton
"It's legal, so it's fine morally" is an odd way of seeing things for me.

Legality and morality are two totally different things. It's legally fine for me to let doors swing shut in people's faces, to cut people up on the roads, to ignore homeless people etc. But it would still make me a shit person if I did all those things constantly.
 




CHAPPERS

DISCO SPENG
Jul 5, 2003
44,757
Tax should be collected correctly, even down to cash in hand work. Cutting HMRC by 19,000 members of staff (Cameron 11,000, May to cut 8,000) is not exactly going to help is it.

There's so much that isn't right that comes out of this and it's ridiculous, frankly, that it's being brushed aside by many people saying that we'd all do it if we could. How can you be happy with a billionaire, for example, moving money abroad to a shell company to avoid tax and then to buy up a load of property using that company, meaning huge areas of London have thousands of empty properties whilst people can't afford to buy?
 


Notters

Well-known member
Oct 20, 2003
24,865
Guiseley
What I don't understand is why people like this, who have such incredible amounts of money anyway, can even be bothered to do this. I suppose their accountants just deal with it and that is that?
 


timbha

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
9,834
Sussex
"It's legal, so it's fine morally" is an odd way of seeing things for me.

Legality and morality are two totally different things. It's legally fine for me to let doors swing shut in people's faces, to cut people up on the roads, to ignore homeless people etc. But it would still make me a shit person if I did all those things constantly.


Agreed. There's an old saying "it's what you do when no-one is looking" ie the fear of being caught shouldn't be the reason for not doing bad things
 




CHAPPERS

DISCO SPENG
Jul 5, 2003
44,757
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...the-paradise-papers-a-light-on-murky-dealings

Taxes are, as a noted American jurist put it, the price we pay for civilisation. Voters tax themselves, among other things, for schools, roads, a health service, for welfare provision, to pay their soldiers and build a diplomatic corps. When a group at the top of society secedes and forms a globally mobile republic, able to choose which jurisdiction they wish to operate under, the public is right to ask why we allow this to happen. Why should taxes just be for the little people?

This is true of corporate entities as well as individuals. Increasingly – and worryingly – the international profits of many corporations are showing up in tax havens. It’s no good for ministers to claim the sharing of information on British residents will assuage public anger. There’s little evidence that the tax authorities or the police have the resources to go toe-to-toe with the global elite. The government could shrink the tax avoidance industry overnight – by banning giving public sector contracts to big consulting firms that offer tax advisory services. If crown dependencies and overseas territories want to trade on an association with Britain then tell them to accept mainland standards for regulating financial services.

After the austerity years of private affluence and public impoverishment, there are few takers for the idea that the rich shift cash offshore for laudable reasons. The public mood is one of cynicism, not merely scepticism – and it’s justified by the revelations that politicians have failed to take seriously enough for years.
 


Dick Swiveller

Well-known member
Sep 9, 2011
9,142
Would I/do I take advantage of official ways of reducing tax such as ISAs? Yes. Would I enter into a scheme that was clearly a dodge via a loophole? No. Big difference between doing a couple of cash jobs and offsetting nearly all of your tax and yet one is illegal. I'm not a raving 'leftie' or Mother Theresa type but firmly believe everyone should pay their fair share where possible. Not that I do cash jobs as it isn't much of a thing in IT but would I feel bad if I paid full tax on my salary but didn't declare a bit on the side? No. But this is all about degrees and it seems to be very highly paid people abusing the system to pay as little tax as possible which seems highly immoral to me.
 


CHAPPERS

DISCO SPENG
Jul 5, 2003
44,757
I wonder if a builder would do less cash in hand if he knew that everyone else was playing fair, and his customers knew that too? Probably.
 




studio150

Well-known member
Jul 30, 2011
29,555
On the Border
"It's legal, so it's fine morally" is an odd way of seeing things for me.

Legality and morality are two totally different things. It's legally fine for me to let doors swing shut in people's faces, to cut people up on the roads, to ignore homeless people etc. But it would still make me a shit person if I did all those things constantly.

If you cut people up on the roads, I would suggest is not a legal activity, as I assume if witnessed by a Police Officer you could well receive a summons for driving without due care and attention.
 




cheshunt seagull

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
2,486
If the govt has decided to use tax reduction as an incentive to encourage people to behave in certain ways then I would have no problem in making use of that. It is very different from exploiting loopholes and using cash-in-hand as a way of avoiding payment. Morally I don't really see any real difference between the latter and putting your hand in a charity collection and pocketing it yourself.
 






Oct 25, 2003
23,964
I'm willing to be that a fair number of those who stash their (vast amounts of) money away are also those who justify the government failing to do things that a government should do eg. give disabled people enough money live vaguely comfortably, pay public sector workers a reasonable amount, not see a monumental spike in nationwide rough sleeping figures with the attitude of "there isn't enough money"
 


CHAPPERS

DISCO SPENG
Jul 5, 2003
44,757
I'm willing to be that a fair number of those who stash their (vast amounts of) money away are also those who justify the government failing to do things that a government should do eg. give disabled people enough money live vaguely comfortably, pay public sector workers a reasonable amount, not see a monumental spike in nationwide rough sleeping figures with the attitude of "there isn't enough money"

Owners of major newspaper groups, for example.
 


Giraffe

VERY part time moderator
Helpful Moderator
NSC Patreon
Aug 8, 2005
26,456
I wonder if a builder would do less cash in hand if he knew that everyone else was playing fair, and his customers knew that too? Probably.

Seriously? Are you really being serious?

The amount of tax avoided by contractors is far greater than the amounts we are talking about with the rich and famous. Tax evasion at the lower level is rife, and illegal, and all too often left unpunished.
 




Hotchilidog

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2009
8,645
Tax should be collected correctly, even down to cash in hand work. Cutting HMRC by 19,000 members of staff (Cameron 11,000, May to cut 8,000) is not exactly going to help is it.

There's so much that isn't right that comes out of this and it's ridiculous, frankly, that it's being brushed aside by many people saying that we'd all do it if we could. How can you be happy with a billionaire, for example, moving money abroad to a shell company to avoid tax and then to buy up a load of property using that company, meaning huge areas of London have thousands of empty properties whilst people can't afford to buy?

Absolutely. A very disappointing reaction by some on here. Comparing an ISA in which you can make limited investment to avoiding £3m of VAT on a private jet FFS is quite frankly ridiculous. People are more outraged by a benefits claimant owning a widescreen tv.

The super rich are taking the p*ss out of ordinary people and that they can get some to feel sympathy for them is remarkable.
 





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