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New diesel and petrol vehicles to be banned from 2040 in UK



Motogull

Motogull

Todd Warrior
Sep 16, 2005
9,848
Gwylan said:
People who say that car batteries don't hold charge long enough should just cast their minds back to how mobile phones have changed since the late 80s. If battery technology can advance so quickly for phones, they can advance quickly for cars.
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Yup. Any followers of the IOM TT can only be impressed with the progress of the bikes running the Zero TT. The bikes are plenty fast. They need to make it a two lapper to encourage durability now.

Its coming. Its exciting. I'm pretty sure emopeds are very efficient and cost peanuts to recharge.
 




Thunder Bolt

Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
Aug 18, 2009
65,444
Beside the seaside, beside the sea
Gwylan said:
People who say that car batteries don't hold charge long enough should just cast their minds back to how mobile phones have changed since the late 80s. If battery technology can advance so quickly for phones, they can advance quickly for cars.
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They could even become solar powered with the technology in photo cells improving all the time.
 


S

Superseagull

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2003
2,121
A couple of days ago the government announced plans to electrify the trains from Bristol to Wales are scrapped and instead they will use Diesel engines. Today they announce no combustion engine cars in the future. Bit of a mixed message?
 


carlzeiss

carlzeiss

Well-known member
May 19, 2009
5,844
Amazonia
The drive by the previous Labour government to encourage millions of Britons to opt for diesel cars in a bid to save the planet was “wrong” and a “massive problem for public health” Barry Gardiner, shadow Environment Minister, has admitted.

Ten million Britons drive diesel cars, in a trend which was encouraged by tax breaks given by Gordon Brown when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Last year more than half of all new cars sold were diesel. But while they may have lower CO2 emissions than their petrol counterparts, diesel cars emit a higher amount of deadly pollutants – including nitrogen dioxide and sooty particulate matter – which have contributed to dangerous levels of air pollution resulting in the deaths of 29,000 people a year.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...oblem-admits-shadow-environment-10000843.html
 


beorhthelm

beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,301
Half Time Pies said:
Actually the technology is moving on at an incredible pace and by 2040 this won't be an issue. Houses will be fitted with battery technology that enables them to store energy during off-peak periods or from local renewable sources such as solar and wind and use it during peak periods. In fact there is a lot of work going on to find out if electric cars can actually help deal with peak demand, the car would be plugged in to the supply and then the house would access some power from the car battery during peak periods such as early evening and then recharge the car when demand dropped.
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thats ambitious. suggesting that car owning households will also own a second multi kW battery backup? i recall the time when every house would have an hydrogen energy cell for all energy needs. the tech already exist, costs and infrastructure, not so much and its come to nothing. actually, that might be the part of the solution here. thing is, switching petroleum to electric would increase the demand for electricity by 50%, and there would not be a non-peak time if 25 million cars need charging.


Half Time Pies said:
A lot of your post is a throw back to concerns that were relevant to when electric vehicles first came out, for example the vehicles that are coming out over the few years will have ranges approaching 400 miles and within the next 10 years range will be no issue at all. In terms of charging I am a electric vehicle driver and I can get 80% charge from a 50kw rapid charger in less than 30mins. The very latest ones that are being installed are 400kw chargers where the power is boosted by battery technology, its clear that 15min chargers will not be an issue in the space of only a couple of years.
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as i understand it, battery technology does not scale well. taking a battery tech that can charge so much in such time cant just double, triple the input and charge half or third the time. and some become higly unstable when you push the limits or theres manufacturing defects - see the problems with flamable phone and hover boards. maybe not so combustable as petrol, but introducing a a new tech prone to spontaneous combustion isnt going to be simple today (doubt youd be allow to introduce petrol today through safety concerns).

all told i dont think the replacment for petroleum based cars is necessarily electric.
 






beorhthelm

beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,301






S

seagully

Cock-knobs!
Jun 30, 2006
2,954
Battle
I've seen many people on this thread questioning "battery life". I drive an electric car and there have been several driven in the US to over 200,000 miles with no noticeable degredation of the battery. The issue of range has also been raised. Tesla already produce cars with ranges of over 300 miles. Yes, they are expensive, but by the time this ban comes into play the technology will surely have advanced tenfold.
 


FatSuperman

FatSuperman

Well-known member
Feb 25, 2016
2,830
Really interesting thread. I don't drive an EV but a friend has the Tesla, amazing piece of kit. It already meets his needs for real-world use 95% of the time, it's just longer journeys that he has to think about his route a bit. But given that every morning he gets in it there is a full tank of juice, he spends a lot less time and effort driving it to refuelling spots than I do.

That said, he did drive it across France and get massively caught out. He had a meeting the other side of Paris, planned out his route and needed to stop to re-charge. Allowed himself 45 mins at a Tesla station which he'd use for a little rest stop. Got to the station and there were about a dozen cars queuing for the charging points :) that pisses me off when I've got to wait for someone to fill up and pay for gasoline let alone wait for a fast charge!

Anyway, I also believe that the transition to this technology can be achieved in these timescales - but economic forces need to make it happen before it really works out. And I'm not just saying that because I've got money invested in lithium :)
 


FatSuperman

FatSuperman

Well-known member
Feb 25, 2016
2,830
The Large One said:
The hydrogen on this planet is largely attached to every other element, and extracting it from whatever compound it has formed a part of is very expensive and fuel-heavy. They're working on it, and they're getting there. We wait with bated breath.
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I used to have shares in an Italian company called ACTA, they produced self-charging fuel cell solutions, which used an electrolyser to produce the hydrogen. Was mainly aiming as a solution for recharging small-vehicle fuel cells (mopeds etc), but also very handy for mobile cell towers in remote areas - these usually run diesel generators but fuel security is a big issue, plus you need to get fuel delivered regularly. We're some fantastic things going on but sadly they went bankrupt. They really struggled to find buyers back then (think they went down about 4 years ago)
 




Notters

Notters

Well-known member
Oct 20, 2003
24,869
Guiseley
Superseagull said:
A couple of days ago the government announced plans to electrify the trains from Bristol to Wales are scrapped and instead they will use Diesel engines. Today they announce no combustion engine cars in the future. Bit of a mixed message?
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Not in the slightest. Diesel trains are more efficient and trains are not a significant air quality issue in this country. Most of the time they run outside of cities and do not struggle with congestion.
 


Marty___Mcfly

Marty___Mcfly

I see your wicked plan - I’m a junglist.
Sep 14, 2011
2,251
Seems like this is pushing he difficult stuff into the long grass- smells like avoidance / denial.

Banning diesel AND petrol is tricky. Banning diesel for cars (new sales), and maybe move buses to electric, seems more doable- I mean we could do that by 2020 forget 2040.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 


H

Half Time Pies

Well-known member
Sep 7, 2003
1,407
Brighton
beorhthelm said:
thats ambitious. suggesting that car owning households will also own a second multi kW battery backup? i recall the time when every house would have an hydrogen energy cell for all energy needs. the tech already exist, costs and infrastructure, not so much and its come to nothing. actually, that might be the part of the solution here. thing is, switching petroleum to electric would increase the demand for electricity by 50%, and there would not be a non-peak time if 25 million cars need charging.
Click to expand...

Why do I think this will happen? Because of the massive increase in investment in Battery technology over the last few years and the signs that governments worldwide are pushing in this direction. In my opinion the technology and uptake is moving so fast that it will quickly reach a tipping point where its inevitable...I am not saying that there won't be challenges but nothing that can't be overcome with the right level of investment.

In terms of costs these are coming down dramatically, the Tesla Powerwall 2 is £5000-£6000 pounds and stores enough electricity to power a 4 bedroom house. It won't be long before this drops to an affordable level and I wouldn't be surprised if there were some form of government incentives in place to encourage the up-take.

In terms of demand, Batteries have the potential to change the entire structure of energy distribution systems and balance demand. I am not an electrician so I have taken the following from an article: "The grid is a treelike structure where energy emerges from distant generators, then flows through the trunk and along the branches to the ‘leaves’ of each house. That hierarchical system can run into many problems. the most common issue in grids is maintaining grid stability in terms of frequency and voltage, especially at the extreme endpoints of the energy delivery path to customers. The proliferation of residential solar panel systems without batteries actually makes it harder for grid operators to maintain grid stability. Everything changes when batteries are added to homes and businesses as they can be aggregated as a distributed ‘virtual generator’, embedded deeply throughout the grid’s customer base.

In future, a grid operator could call upon this virtual generator to dynamically balance frequency and voltage — precisely where and when that balancing is most needed. Contributing to grid stability is the sort of service that battery owners might expect to receive payment for when grid operators need it".
 




beorhthelm

beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,301
Marty___Mcfly said:
Seems like this is pushing he difficult stuff into the long grass- smells like avoidance / denial.
Click to expand...

dont think anything is being avoided, it needs long term planning to change a massive infrastructure supporting refueling of >25m vehicles. agree rules on new buses could be brought forward, they are highly suited to electric.
 


H

Half Time Pies

Well-known member
Sep 7, 2003
1,407
Brighton
beorhthelm said:
as i understand it, battery technology does not scale well. taking a battery tech that can charge so much in such time cant just double, triple the input and charge half or third the time. and some become higly unstable when you push the limits or theres manufacturing defects - see the problems with flamable phone and hover boards. maybe not so combustable as petrol, but introducing a a new tech prone to spontaneous combustion isnt going to be simple today (doubt youd be allow to introduce petrol today through safety concerns).

all told i dont think the replacment for petroleum based cars is necessarily electric.
Click to expand...

The technology is already there and its perfectly safe, 200x 400kw chargers are going in as we speak, all thats needed is more of them to be in place across the UK.

Many people already run electric cars without any issues, I live in Brighton and work in eastbourne and drive a 2nd generation Nissan Leaf. The range is perfectly adequate for my commute and on my route there are 50kw rapid chargers in Lewes and Selmeston which I rarely need to use. I even took the car up to Kenilworth and back in a day, charging for 30mins on the way up and 30mins on the way back using rapid chargers in the service stations, these are stops I would have probably made anyway for a break and a coffee so no inconvenience. The technology coming out over the next couple of year with vehicle range and charging availability will be a game changer, removing peoples range anxiety and therefore the reason not to purchase an electric car.
 


beorhthelm

beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,301
Half Time Pies said:
Why do I think this will happen? Because of the massive increase in investment in Battery technology over the last few years and the signs that governments worldwide are pushing in this direction. In my opinion the technology and uptake is moving so fast that it will quickly reach a tipping point where its inevitable...I am not saying that there won't be challenges but nothing that can't be overcome with the right level of investment....
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...and the will to take up this approach. currently its estimated to cost £18bn (!) to introduce smart meters, they'e met resistance from both consumers and industry as not really fulfilling the original potential. im not saying it cant happen, just we've been here before (albeit not quite so far down the road) with hydrogen fuel cells and more recently solar panels. recall we were going to have solar installed on every new build, that got shelved. people (doesnt bother me personally) dont like solar panels on homes, installation costs were high and the tariffs were scrapped. imagine rocking up to buy a new Ford Electra, £20k on the road + £5k battery supply +£2k install. oh you live in a flat? sorry cant provide im afraid, unless you're in a area supplied by Virgin Power? no? sorry. the imagination of Musk and friends are well ahead of reality for practical, wide spread, everyday purposes, some problems can be solved with research, better costs, adjusted around, but some just wont budge. petroleum base vehicles are so ubiquitous because despite their flaws (very inefficient) they are very convenient, and set a high bar for their replacement.
 


Albion my Albion

Albion my Albion

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Feb 6, 2016
17,834
Indiana, USA
wehatepalace said:
Add to the fact the logistics of everyone being able to charge there cars, how for instance could someone that lives on the top floor of a tower block charge his car each night ? That's a bloody great extension lead he'll need !
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Simply unintelligent thinking. The electricity comes to the building from below. Where ever the car is parked the building would need to add metered electrical charging stations.
 




Curious Orange

Curious Orange

Punxsatawney Phil
Jul 5, 2003
9,949
On NSC for over two decades...
beorhthelm said:
dont think anything is being avoided, it needs long term planning to change a massive infrastructure supporting refueling of >25m vehicles. agree rules on new buses could be brought forward, they are highly suited to electric.
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... used to have lots of electric buses in Brighton of course...
 




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