Would they want to be pardoned? They did break the law and people did get hurt but they were willing to go to jail for their cause. Being sent to jail was a key element in getting their message across.
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[Politics] Jeremy Corbyn said........
- Thread starter wellquickwoody
- Start date
It's not.
JetsetJimbo
Well-known member
- Jun 13, 2011
- 943
There's no such thing as "EU courts". You might be thinking of the European Court of Justice, which is completely separate from the EU.
You're either lying, or you weren't paying attention during the campaign. There was endless talk of the "Norway model" (Norway is in the Single Market but not the EU), and assurances that leaving the EU wouldn't mean leaving the Single Market. Here are a few quotes from Leavers:
"Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market" -- Daniel Hannan MEP
"Only a madman would actually leave the Market" -- Owen Paterson MP
"We have a great independent future just as countries like Norway and Switzerland enjoy" -- Luke Johnson, Chairman of Pizza Express and financial backer of the Vote Leave campaign
"The Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think might be initially attractive" -- Matthew Elliot, Taxpayers' Alliance and Vote Leave
"Increasingly the Norway option looks best for the UK" -- Aaron Banks, funder of UKIP and Leave.EU
"We'll find ourselves part of the EEA and with a free trade deal" -- some bloke called Nigel Farage that you may have heard of.
You can find all these quotes and more here: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...arage-anna-soubry_uk_582ce0a0e4b09025ba310fce
So my question for you is a simple one: Why are you denying these things were said? Were you genuinely unaware, or are you trying to mislead people?
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,290
argue that with the EU, they say otherwise.
you are confusing the ECJ, which is fundamentally part of EU and currently the highest court for all EU members, with European Court of Human Rights which is indeed separate from EU.
Pavilionaire
Well-known member
- Jul 7, 2003
- 30,559
You've taken Andrew Neill's position as if it debunks the 90-second video, but I don't agree with that. The video makes the point that there was no definitive single 'Leave' method of exiting the EU during the referendum campaign and the examples of Norway and Switzerland WERE referred to by Hannan and Farage during that time as European countries that were doing just fine outside of the EU. Of course, Brexit Means Brexit (and therefore Hard Brexit) means no payments to the EU for access to the Single Market - so not Norway or Switzerland.
How many times did we hear "they need us more than we need them" from Leave?
Of course, Corbyn supports Brexit but it is not clear whether he is prepared to go along with Hard Brexit or Soft Brexit with a Norway-style option. A deal that is good for jobs is dependent upon remaining in the Customs Union. The Civil Service reports leaked to Buzzfeed of slower UK growth after Brexit makes Corbyn's position weaker. Labour's position on the EU is confused and unclear.
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,290
ideologically Corbyn would want what ever frees the state from outside control, to enable him to nationalise, put up unilateral tariffs to protect UK industry and jobs, and curtail movement of capital and labour. that means a full, "hard" brexit, or substantial compromise on ideology. growth is irrelevant when you plan to borrow and spend to energise the economy, which would indeed grow the economy unsustainably until the borrowing dries up or the cost cripples us.
On the way
Member
Maybe you should watch the Andrew Neil video posted earlier
Pavilionaire
Well-known member
- Jul 7, 2003
- 30,559
In the Referendum Corbyn came down as a Remainer, albeit a lukewarm 7/10 Remainer, so if Hard Brexit was necessary for his "hard left" master plan why didn't he support Leave in June 2016?
Brilliant post. My bet is you won't get a coherent reply (if you get anything remotely resembling any sort of reply). How difficult is it for people to understand that if you resign from a club you can't set terms. A resignation is a resignation. Any parting gifts are at the discretion of the club. Any continued use of the club's gym, car park or other facilities are at the discretion of the club, and may incur a charge - to be decided by the club. A failure to undrstand any of this is why I have always found the soft Brexit advocates to be absurd fantasists. I have no such issue with hard Brexiters - I don't want hard Brexit btw, I am a dry-eyed remainer - since hard Brexit is at least definitive, unequivocal and achievable, and entirely in our power to effect.
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,290
politics? maybe he's not wedded to those old socialist ways and already made an ideological shift?cunning fergus
Well-known member
- Jan 18, 2009
- 4,744
You have certainly not been paying attention to what EU institutions exist if you think the EU’s court of justice is not an key and fully integral part of the EU......I will give you the benefit of the doubt before chucking about accusations of lying.
https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/institutions-bodies/court-justice_en
The terms hard or soft Brexit in my view are unhelpful, you are either in or out, and whilst I accept the “Norway option” was part of the narrative of the debate, it was also not helpful.
Norway are in EFTA, they make financial contributors to the EU budget (consistent with a full member), they are subject to EU freedom of movement requirements, and all other demands of single market regulations. They may as well be in, but the truth about Norway is their trading profile works for this arrangement as they export twice as much to the EU than they import. Further they have significant energy and fishing interests in their territorial waters and they have a bespoke agreements with the EU for fishing with means they are sovereign in a key area of national economic and strategic interest.
The U.K. economic position is nothing like Norway, we both know that.
Pavilionaire
Well-known member
- Jul 7, 2003
- 30,559
You may be conversant with Norwegian fishing policy but 99% of the UK electorate aren't and if Leavers tell the electorate there are other progressive European countries like Switzerland and Norway that have chosen not to apply for EU membership but are nevertheless trading with the EU successfully then on the face of it, it is a powerful argument for leaving.
As you say, it suits those countries with specialist export markets on which they are heavily dependent to remain in the EEA. However, this was never offered as an option to the UK electorate, yet the signs are we may end up with something like it.
kjgood
Well-known member
You say now we have a situation where people don't really know what they voted for, that's absolutely correct. I would suggest the majority (Not everyone though) of those who voted leave did so over one or maybe two key points that were important to them such as control of borders, immigration, level of payments to the EU, ruling ourselves without those pesky Europeans telling us what to do, a promise of huge redirection of funds into education or health or other similar subjects without thinking through the overall potential implications of their vote. The vote was clearly based on an in or out decision and the result was a nearly clear out, unfortunately there wasn't an out but partly in tick box. You cant be out, but OK we want to be in in areas where its nice to be in now we have thought about it.
We have to prepare for life on the outside as we the 'British public' said out even if it means trade tariffs, passport checks, a potential to inflame the Ireland situation again, not having healthcare or working rights in Spain and other Ex Pat areas, an unstable economy, higher holiday costs etc.etc That's what we voted for.
cunning fergus
Well-known member
- Jan 18, 2009
- 4,744
How do you know, I suspect there are hundreds of thousands of people that either work, used to work, or knew people that used to work in Britain’s fishing industry pre decimation shortly after we joined the EEC. I think they would have a good idea of why Norway still has a fishing fleet and industry employing significant numbers of people.
Interestingly Norway has had 2 referendums to join the EU both rejected by the electorate, and I think the Swiss have had a couple of rejections too. The last one essentially removing the possibility to join for a generation. Both countries with very different economies but yet with politicians wanting to do the same thing........just like here in the U.K.
The Swiss in fact are in something of a standoff with the Commission about access to the single market as the Commission maintained access would be dependent on accepting freedom of movement. The Swiss had a referendum on it, and this was rejected by the electorate.
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/busine...ns-support-swiss-in-stock-market-row/43863608
I’m sure it will work out ok in the end after all where do we think those corrupt pigs in Brussels have got their tax free money and “benefits” money stashed away?
cunning fergus
Well-known member
- Jan 18, 2009
- 4,744
Why is it a club?
You are calling it a club, but the club works different ways for different members. A couple of members pay the fees for everyone else.......what kind of gym works that way?
If it did you would be mad to continue to be a member.
cunning fergus
Well-known member
- Jan 18, 2009
- 4,744
The argument falls apart, not because it is falling apart, you just don’t agree with it. A couple of posts ago it was falling apart because the voting margin was too small, now it’s about the political union aspect. Staying in the single market and customs union would not be a political divorce, as the U.K. would continue to have to subscribe to EU political objectives. The freedom of movement of people is an example of that......this means the U.K. gains no control over our borders and no politician could make any change regardless of the will of the electorate. Similarly the U.K. would not be free to organise it’s own trade deals.
This is the nub of the problem, and why staying in either the single market or customs union is important for remainers, it’s a close to remain as it’s possible to be, and it’s certainly not out.
I see in your view that an option in the 2nd referendum would be to remain, i.e. to completely discount the first referendum, and it’s why you don’t want a good deal from the negotiations.......you want a bad one you tinker. I said I could see your ickle todger earlier, and there it is.......it looks like a walnut whip.
dingodan
New member
- Feb 16, 2011
- 10,080
Their video was called "Leave Campaigners - Let's stay in the single market".
It wasn't called "Leave Campaign - no single message".
Your post was implying the same, that Leave campaigners had claimed we wouldn't leave the single market, you didn't claim they had muddled messages.
All of the "messages", which were cut and chopped to suit the argument, were also made before any referendum was even decided upon, none of them are even from the campaign to leave.
Don't try to defend lies and spin which were clearly misleading and were entirely meant to mislead. Have some self respect.
alfredmizen
Banned
- Mar 11, 2015
- 6,342
no , nothing whatsoever , i would execute the treacherous b*stard , and thats not a careless throwaway comment , i.would.
It seems my prediction was correct. Let's get back to coherence.... I said that if you resign from a club you can't expect to demand to set any new terms. Who is paying for the club is irrelevant. I assume you think we are paying for and therefore own the club. Think again. But....if you were correct that the UK is bankrolling the EU then instant hard Brexit would make absolute sense for us. So.....why isn't May going for this? Why is she asking the EU to make an offer? I suspect the answer is....you are wrong....we are not bankrolling the EU and getting nothing in return. As I said, if getting out of the EU is worth any amount of money and difficulty with the neighbours going forward then we should hard Brexit tomorrow. If not....huffing and puffing has not, is not and will not get us anywhere with the rest of the EU. They simply think we are mad.
I must say, a hard border with Eire will be a marvel to behold....because that is the only option if we hard Brexit.
Anyway....frankly I just look occasionally at this cluster**** and its machinations on these NSC threads, and shake my head sadly. I offer no solutions for making Brexit work. I have read no solutions from anyone else, either. And my bed is dry. I do marvel, however, at those who could see nothing but bad about being in the EU, and still believe that only good will manifest after we leave. I presume they also believe in the second coming, alchemy and Santa.