Legal Advice Required (Home refurbishment is the issue)

BN9 BHA · Feb 18, 2017

hitony said:
Since beginning of Novenber there are close to 1000 e mails to do with just this one job.
The shower screen dont come into play as it does not have any at the front, it is open -
Karndean only state "Not suitable for wet rooms" they recommend it for bathrooms, on there web site there are many photos showing bathrooms with it in.
The architect is saying we have to bear the cost but I guess the client is as well.

Thanks for everyones opinions, keep them coming, I will repolay later i have to go out now, thanks again

Can you give us a few more details about the shower screen?
As a plumber and bathroom installer I'm interested.
As others have said this doesn't sound like a wet room as you have installed a shower tray, but will spray from the shower go on the floor?

GoldWithFalmer · Feb 18, 2017

hitony said:
Since beginning of Novenber there are close to 1000 e mails to do with just this one job.
The shower screen dont come into play as it does not have any at the front, it is open -
Karndean only state "Not suitable for wet rooms" they recommend it for bathrooms, on there web site there are many photos showing bathrooms with it in.
The architect is saying we have to bear the cost but I guess the client is as well.

Thanks for everyones opinions, keep them coming, I will repolay later i have to go out now, thanks again

bn9 bha said:
Can you give us a few more details about the shower screen?
As a plumber and bathroom installer I'm interested.
As others have said this doesn't sound like a wet room as you have installed a shower tray, but will spray from the shower go on the floor?

perhaps i have misunderstood this? This is saturday morning after all and can appreciate a heavy friday night might have come into play :lolol:

funny

NooBHA · Feb 18, 2017

hitony said:
With this sort of project, it is far from unusual for the client to either change their mind or have a second thought about things, I accept that, as the project goes on they see things in a different perspective, I certainly am not the type of person to walk around with a contract in my hand all the time, so we try to accommodate and please, this issue has gone one step to far though........I have felt since before xmas it was leading to something like this, so this situation happening has far from surprised me.

In my head i am fully expecting to take out both trays, no doubt have to replace them at our cost and refit etc to suit the newly tiled floor, all i will say is, up to now all the "Extras" that have been done have been priced and completed on an extremely fair and sensible price, if what happens as I think it will with this shower tray issue, all future extras will be priced accordingly (and I know for a fact there are quite a few more extra items to come) I wont walk away from it, I will complete the project whatever happens, whilst "well in excess of £400k" sounds good, profit wise it is not, some you win some you lose i guess when its finished i will post some photos on here in fairness it is starting to look awesome, it was a 200+ year old cottage with a 1972 house built on to it as an extension, it is massive, it really will be lovely when completed.

This is not unusual in terms of contractual agreement where you are essentially the ''middle man'' - You are probably correct in that the responsibility of extra costs will fall upon yourself since it would have been you responsibility to liase with suitability of products being used.

Contracts between yourself and the client and yourself and the plumber are already agreed. Your solution can only to be negotiate new contracts with both and the solutions would be to pass on the extra costs to the client by negotiating an increased fee. Or alternatively if the shower trays are broken on removal pass the cost of any breakage on to the plumber. If he refuses to agree you could terminate that contractand find a plumber who might be able to remove without breakage

Both of them will be difficult to negotiate but I am afraid your original fee is based on the fact that you take responsibility for being the negotiator between all parties involved.Many jobs run over budget so although you have an agreed fee for services in place there is nothing to stop further negotiations to alter that agreement.

Not all of this is set in stone and many contracts are subject to interpretation so when drawing up contracts there should always be a clause in place which allows for ''unforeseen circumstances''

I always find that the shorter the contract the more watertight it is but that is not always possible when more than one party is involved hence the reason for additional clauses in contracts being necessary

Mr Bridger · Feb 18, 2017

hitony said:
Since beginning of Novenber there are close to 1000 e mails to do with just this one job.
The shower screen dont come into play as it does not have any at the front, it is open -
Karndean only state "Not suitable for wet rooms" they recommend it for bathrooms, on there web site there are many photos showing bathrooms with it in.
The architect is saying we have to bear the cost but I guess the client is as well.

Thanks for everyones opinions, keep them coming, I will repolay later i have to go out now, thanks again

I think this might be where you fall down.

If there is no screen on part of the shower then it becomes a walk in shower and not a shower enclosure and therefor water can come out. Karndean flooring is a tiled floor not a complete covering as say a vinyl floor so water will penetrate.
I know it doesnt help but I think at that stage I would have asked the client to verify this for the go ahead and get him to agree in an email and state what could possibly happen.
It sounds like there's a hybrid of ideas going on and a few mixed messages, but I think ultimately the architect should shoulder a lot of the blame as he's in charge of the specification and conveying what the client wants and if he's specified this then you are only carrying out what he is saying.
I think tradesman come across similar problems all the time as products get updated and new technology comes into play and its very hard to keep up to date with it all .
No matter how long you've been in the trade you never stop learning!

I've been there in your situation and know how it feels . Hope all goes well :thumbsup:

drew · Feb 18, 2017

I'm no expert but if I as a customer chose something then I would expect the experts to advise if it is practicable or not for the purpose I want it for. If they do and point out the potential problems and then there are problems then that is on my head. If they don't and there are problems I would expect them to carry the can (and the cost!).

Triggaaar · Feb 18, 2017

hitony said:
the client (home owner) choose Karndean flooring for the master bedroom en-suite and the guest bathroom, he also requested that we fit the very expensive shower trays in both rooms as low as possible, to create a walk in shower effect, this we did, we allowed for self leveler and 3mm Ply then of course the Karndean.

Our flooring contractor stated that Karndean is not suitable for a wet room floor, this is correct albeit neither rooms are wet rooms, but because the shower trays have been set to a level to create no upstand, on both shower trays where you enter the shower will be level to the finish floor.

The Architect is now saying they want a tiled floor, this will mean us taking up the trays and raising them to accept tiles (I'm not going to go into great detail on this as its just not worth it, but trust me if we leveled the floor and fitted a decent floor tile the edge of the tile WILL be higher than the tray which is not acceptable)

We installed these trays to stay in place, my honest feeling is that to try and remove them they will break / crack etc, both these trays are very expensive trays, my plumber who is extremely experienced told me that if we try and take them up they will highly likely crack etc.

Right, thats a brief background of the situation, what I would like to know is:
1) The client chose the flooring product, is it his responsibility to check its fit for purpose?
2) should the architect have checked its suitability - fit for purpose?
3) should I have checked if its fit for purpose? I have karndean in my bathroom, we have lived here 11 years never had a problem, go on the karndean website it shows many photos of it being in bathrooms BUT it does state not to be used in a wet room.

I have a fair bit of experience in contractual issues like this. It is not clear cut. It largely depends on what is in your contract and the architect's contract.
1) Not necessarily. A client should be able to ask for something, and be told if it's not suitable.
2) I would think that depends on a) the contract b) whether the request for the flooring came from the client to you, or from the client to the architect to you.
3) See no. 2.

PM me if needed.

NooBHA · Feb 18, 2017

drew said:
I'm no expert but if I as a customer chose something then I would expect the experts to advise if it is practicable or not for the purpose I want it for. If they do and point out the potential problems and then there are problems then that is on my head. If they don't and there are problems I would expect them to carry the can (and the cost!).

Technically, that would be the common sense approach to it.

The only problem with that being ''you cannot supersede a written contract with a verbal one'' - Any amendment to an initial written contract has to be in writing.

GoldWithFalmer · Feb 18, 2017

Perhaps the OP should have been posted to Remainers in the Brexit thread-they after all know everything about anything and are experts and have crystal balls that see into the future too.

BN9 BHA · Feb 18, 2017

GoldWithFalmer said:
perhaps i have misunderstood this? This is saturday morning after all and can appreciate a heavy friday night might have come into play funny

The answer to the problem in the shower room is in the parts you have highlighted I fear. :thumbsup:

GoldWithFalmer · Feb 18, 2017

bn9 bha said:
The answer to the problem in the shower room is in the parts you have highlighted I fear.

Can they be lifted? re hinged as it were..maybe a thinner seal fitted at the bottom,you can tell i know nothing about 1st or 2nd fix of such matters,remember although my family are in the trades (various) etc i am merely the delivery man :lolol:

Dick Head · Feb 18, 2017

As a last resort, if all else fails, plaster down all the drains.

BN9 BHA · Feb 18, 2017

Mr Bridger said:
I think this might be where you fall down.

If there is no screen on part of the shower then it becomes a walk in shower and not a shower enclosure and therefor water can come out. Karndean flooring is a tiled floor not a complete covering as say a vinyl floor so water will penetrate.
I know it doesnt help but I think at that stage I would have asked the client to verify this for the go ahead and get him to agree in an email and state what could possibly happen.
It sounds like there's a hybrid of ideas going on and a few mixed messages, but I think ultimately the architect should shoulder a lot of the blame as he's in charge of the specification and conveying what the client wants and if he's specified this then you are only carrying out what he is saying.
I think tradesman come across similar problems all the time as products get updated and new technology comes into play and its very hard to keep up to date with it all .
No matter how long you've been in the trade you never stop learning!

I've been there in your situation and know how it feels . Hope all goes well

Good post, I would agree with all of this.

The architect must be at blame for this shower room idea.

BN9 BHA · Feb 18, 2017

GoldWithFalmer said:
Can they be lifted? re hinged as it were..maybe a thinner seal fitted at the bottom,you can tell i know nothing about 1st or 2nd fix of such matters,remember although my family are in the trades (various) etc i am merely the delivery man

The type of shower tray in question here is fitted directly to the floor as we know, most manufacturers of trays state the tray should be bedded down on sand and cement, covering the whole base of the tray. I installed one recently that had to be bedded down on tile adhesive, some manufacturers say silicone can be used.

I have taken out many shower trays that have just been laid down on timber or concrete floors, these lift out easily, but any shower tray installed on sand and cement I have always had to smash up to remove.

GoldWithFalmer · Feb 18, 2017

bn9 bha said:
The type of shower tray in question here is fitted directly to the floor as we know, most manufacturers of trays state the tray should be bedded down on sand and cement, covering the whole base of the tray. I installed one recently that had to be bedded down on tile adhesive, some manufacturers say silicone can be used.

I have taken out many shower trays that have just been laid down on timber or concrete floors, these lift out easily, but any shower tray installed on sand and cement I have always had to smash up to remove.

That's what i was thinking,there heavy buggers too,sounds like the job in laying the tray has been done correctly,seems like a bit of smashing to be done....glad i don't do building,i admire it though and i have a loose understanding of such matters..

BN9 BHA · Feb 18, 2017

NooBHA said:
I always find that the shorter the contract the more watertight it is but that is not always possible when more than one party is involved hence the reason for additional clauses in contracts being necessary

Watertight? Not in this case.

NooBHA · Feb 18, 2017

bn9 bha said:
Watertight? Not in this case.

That's true but if the OP had something along the lines of ''Total cost of job = ££££££s and client will be responsible to incur all additional and unforeseen costs'' That would be watertight

BN9 BHA · Feb 18, 2017

GoldWithFalmer said:
That's what i was thinking,there heavy buggers too,sounds like the job in laying the tray has been done correctly,seems like a bit of smashing to be done....glad i don't do building,i admire it though and i have a loose understanding of such matters..

Many bathroom and shower room leaks are due to shower trays and baths not being installed correctly.
I have seen shower trays crack because they haven't been bedded down on sand and cement, some manufacturers will send someone to look at a cracked tray, if they find the tray not bedded down the tray guarantee is invalid.

Bold Seagull · Feb 18, 2017

If Kardean is in the contract documents and that is fitted to spec. you have fulfilled that duty. If the tray had an upstanding in the contract documents, then this should have only been changed on instruction from the contract administrator. Any requests from the Employer to the contractor should be made via the contract administrator. In practice of course that is difficult when you are working in someone's house.

The administrator while appointed to the Employer has a duty to act impartially to both parties. If you have acted upon direct instruction from the client, while this should have gone through the administrator, they can still instruct you to remove the trays at cost to the Employer. The administrator also has a duty to establish lines of communication at the start of a job, to ensure any variations are only instructed by the administrator.

In this case on the face of it, the contractor on receipt of instruction from the Employer should have referred the matter back to the administrator for formal instruction. The Employer should have known they are not entitled to issue instructions on site. If I was administrating I think I'd be looking to establish culpability on both sides and an acceptance of shared additional costs (assuming the contract docs originally had an upstanding to the Karndean).

drew · Feb 18, 2017

NooBHA said:
Technically, that would be the common sense approach to it.

The only problem with that being ''you cannot supersede a written contract with a verbal one'' - Any amendment to an initial written contract has to be in writing.

I agree with what you're saying but my comments were more aimed at the point before contracts are finalised. ie, customer says I want this type of material, contractor/architect state that that isn't suitable for the purpose and these are the pitfalls, client recites the adage 'customer is always right', contracts are signed and no going back. The old adage about stable doors and bolting horses also springs to mind.

Looking again from just a common sense approach, if it went to court and the client stood up and said 'i accept that was the material I requested but why didn't you as the experts point out the problems. Had you done so I, as any reasonable person, would take your advice and use something different or change the design (eg fit a screen of some kind).'

Mr Bridger · Feb 18, 2017

drew said:
I agree with what you're saying but my comments were more aimed at the point before contracts are finalised. ie, customer says I want this type of material, contractor/architect state that that isn't suitable for the purpose and these are the pitfalls, client recites the adage 'customer is always right', contracts are signed and no going back. The old adage about shower doors and bolting horses also springs to mind.

Looking again from just a common sense approach, if it went to court and the client stood up and said 'i accept that was the material I requested but why didn't you as the experts point out the problems. Had you done so I, as any reasonable person, would take your advice and use something different or change the design (eg fit a screen of some kind).'

Corrected for you

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Legal Advice Required (Home refurbishment is the issue)

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