Bladders
Twats everywhere
I've always liked the idea of the English only voting on English matters but my fear is its just going to another layer of bureaucracy and more snouts in the trough.
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English Votes For English Questions-A promise from the PM?
- Thread starter pastafarian
- Start date
Since England makes up the rump of the UK, it would make sense that we just use Westminster as our parliament and only allow votes for English MPs. We don't need our own parliament for that.
Bladders
Twats everywhere
Farage was saying similar this morning, though I'm sure some of the Northern city's would like any English parliament away from the London bubble.
No. He wants it, but there's no cross party agreement. See below.
Yep. Which will make cross party agreement even harder to reach.
No. He wants one, but it's not there atm. See below.
Doesn't it just?!
No. See below.
"The question of English votes for English laws - the so-called West Lothian question -requires a decisive answer.
So, just as Scotland will vote separately in the Scottish Parliament on their issues of tax, spending and welfare so too England, as well as Wales and Northern Ireland, should be able to vote on these issues and all this must take place in tandem with, and at the same pace as, the settlement for Scotland.
I hope that is going to take place on a cross-party basis. I have asked William Hague to draw up these plans."
My emphasis.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29271765
pastafarian
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #25
thats very pedantic for such an early hour
The Spanish
Well-known member
westminster also being the english parliament will only add fuel to the fire. this is the mistake we make time and time again and thats why we have been through all this nonsense the past few weeks.
if its a genuine union of equals then we have to tread more carefully. i cannot bear scottish nationalism but i do see what winds them up. and we still never learn.
if however, we accept that england is the dominant partner then we press on and just accept the hiccups along the way.
So abolish the Scottish parliament and the Welsh Assembly; their MPs can just vote for things at Westminster?
The major problem with politics in this country is Westminster.
Bold Seagull
strong and stable with me, or...
I really don't see the point in all this English votes for English matters. Currently the UK parliament is 650 seats: England 533, Scotland 59, Wales 40, NI 18. It is massively skewed to England anyway - hence the Scots, Welsh and NI wanted their own assemblies and further powers.
As you've stated, this really has nothing to do with Scottish MP's voting on English issues and everything to do with party representation.
- Jan 3, 2012
- 16,592
What a very organised post, but thanks for the clarification. I think he said there was cross-party agreement to tackle it, but not about the detail, which would tie up with that.
It should all genuinely be very interesting.
I do have to disagree with this. We are the dominant partner, and as such I'd happily accept that smaller partners need and should have devolved power to manage more of their own affairs.
But Westminster is required for federal issues, on issues such as defence.
Personally, I'd rather the Westminster voting system was changed. First past the post is awful.
Oh, has he? It's not in the text of the speech he gave this morning which is quoted in full in the link I gave, but he may have said that in other speeches which I haven't read.
It will definitely be very interesting to see what happens next. Labour will presumably want to keep the Scottish MPs voting on as many issues as possible, but will be cognisant of the reaction in England if they too vociferously oppose English MPs voting on English issues. The Tories will presumably want the exact opposite and will have a strong argument along the lines of "what's good for Scotland is good for England". I don't really think it matters much what the LibDems think, since it's unlikely to be resolved before the next election at which point they're likely to be annhilated, surely? all imo, like.
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,312
this can be achieved by simply excluding Scottish MPs from votes on matters that are devolved. law on Healthcare? no Scottish MPs. law on Crime? include Scottish MPs. there will obviously be some complicated ground, like a Scottish minister in a semi-devolved area (and therefore technically unable to vote on their own Bills), but i cant see why simple solution cant be implemented that alot better than currently.
Bold Seagull
strong and stable with me, or...
I just can't get my head around the need for this.
I'm pro-the Union so while I understand the devolution of powers to Scotland, I have no desire whatsoever to discriminate against MP's on where in the Union they come from.
It matters not to me that the people of Scotland want more power over their affairs, and that suddenly we should look to prevent Scottish MP's voting on matters for the rest of the Union even if some of those matters are decided within Scotland by their own parliament.
Just because a member of our Union wants more individual power, doesn't mean we in turn have to demand it back just for the sake of it.
We should look to strengthen the Union by ensuring we include all MP's having the same voting rights in Parliament regardless of what powers are devolved.
There is absolutely no need for us to be nationalistic just because a smaller partner of our Union has been.
KingKev
Well-known member
So you would be happy for Scottish MPs, who represent the will and views of Scottish residents, to vote on matters that only impact a sub-set of England, Wales and Northern Ireland? No - not democratic, not fair and not logical. We are in a constitutional mess and I wish that the Scots had voted Yes as that would have helped sort this shambles out for the rest of us. No taxation without representation works the other way round as well - or should do....
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,312
you've not heard of the West Lothian question? Currently there are laws created in Westminster that cover areas devolved to Scotland (or Wales, or NI). The Scottish MPs vote on said law to be passed, though it only applies to the English as their devolved parliament has powers to ignore/overrule/amend that law. the discrimination occurs because they (the other nations) have had powers devolved. we need to make a change precisely so that all MPs including English do have the same voting rights (or rather equal), because at present devolution removes rights from the English.
Bold Seagull
strong and stable with me, or...
The will and views of the Scottish people has been to remain in the Union. Devolution of power is still power determined by Westminster voted for by all MP's and is democratic.
The Scottish Parliament will still be separate from the Scottish MP's represented in Westminster. What we're effectively saying is that they will neither be voting on matters in the Scottish Parliament or the UK Parliament rendering them effectively powerless which isn't democratic.
Elected members to the Parliament of our Union should in my opinion have an equal vote on matters. They will vote along with all MP's on the bill to devolve powers, and they should continue to vote on all matters concerning the UK whether it is on a matter that has been devolved to Scotland or not.
We weaken the Union by exclusion, it should be a path we definitely resist. We should take a lead role here and not create further separations.
KingKev
Well-known member
Sorry but I fundamentally disagree. Scottish residents are represented on certain issues at Hollyrood whereby they can take a completely different course to the rest of the UK (eg tuition fees?). Then allowing a Scottish say in those issues for England or the rest of UK on the self-same issue is prima facie undemocratic, given that the Scots have an effective veto on these issues when it comes to themselves. If they want two votes, they are welcome to pay double taxation - otherwise they should stay out of any issues where Hollyrood takes primacy.
HitchinSeagull
Active member
- Aug 9, 2012
- 414
Slightly off topic but I cant help but think that the whole argument over voting rights is a bit disingenuous, surely what people fundamentally care about is money and power, the conservatives see this as a great opportunity to gain more power due to the number of Scottish Labour MPs and there is a growing feeling amongst English right leaning MPs and Right leaning voters that England is being 'done-over' and the extra £1600 a head funding to Scotland is unfair. Quite frankly as people have pointed out the Scottish vote in parliament is not huge proportionally so I couldn't care less about that. All I care about is that funding in the Union is based on need and not nationality, I want there to be extra funding to people living in deprived areas irrespective of whether they are English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish, if that means Scotland maintains additional funding levels great, if it means that they lose some of the £1600 a head funding so be it.
Bold Seagull
strong and stable with me, or...
The question comes from the premise of the Scottish MP voting on an English Law but he isn't voting on it in his own constituency as that is governed by the devolved parliament.
What I don't have an issue with as someone in England is that Scottish MP voting as a member of Parliament on laws governing the rest of the Union. I still see that person as an equal representative of the UK in Parliament.
The West Lothian question to me has always been regarding the say the MP has over his constituents on matters passed by a separate body. As I've said, as far as I'm concerned a member of the UK Parliament is a member of the Parliament regardless of the powers devolved elsewhere.
Bold Seagull
strong and stable with me, or...
You're making a nationalistic determination. The Scottish MP in Westminster has no voting right on an issue decided in Holyrood and vice versa. There is no 2 votes as the Scottish MP is not making a vote that determines the outcome in Scotland on a devolved issue.
Scotland, Wales and NI are minority representatives in the UK Parliament. Their say over matters is already dwarfed by the number of English constituencies, and in my view, their opinion is valid on decisions within the UK even if those decisions don't impact their own country.
The West Lothian question is really about how the devolved country deals with this, not the other way round.