Ernest
Stupid IDIOT
The most hours you can do in a day is 12, imagine you had a driver who had been up since 3am for a 4am shift start still driving a train at 3pm and doing that for a week ? Would you feel safe ?
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Barber On The Warpath Over Train Disruption, Doesn't Pull Any Punches!
- Thread starter Tom Hark Preston Park
- Start date
The most hours you can do in a day is 12, imagine you had a driver who had been up since 3am for a 4am shift start still driving a train at 3pm and doing that for a week ? Would you feel safe ?
not if I go on strike....
- Jan 19, 2010
- 1,190
Thanks for the answer (and also for the response from [MENTION=934]KNC[/MENTION] too) to what I should have made clear wasn't a loaded question.
To answer yours, I wouldn't feel safe putting my life in the hands of someone who's suffering from work fatigue.
AlastairWatts
Active member
I think that's exactly right. 'It'll be alright on the night' sort of thing.... Trouble is the RMT have obviously seen through this
Easy 10
Brain dead MUG SHEEP
The governments washing-of-hands of this entre fiasco while it plays out has been beneath contempt. They're basically fighting a war by proxy whilst trying to give the impression its nothing to do with them. Pathetic.
I truly fear its going to take a serious passenger injury, or worse some kind of disaster, before the collective minds of the RMT / Southern / Govia / the Government are forced into getting round a table, cracking some heads and resolving this one and for all.
I truly fear its going to take a serious passenger injury, or worse some kind of disaster, before the collective minds of the RMT / Southern / Govia / the Government are forced into getting round a table, cracking some heads and resolving this one and for all.
Seagull over Canaryland
Well-known member
A decent letter from Martin Perry. It will be interesting to see if he receives the courtesy of a meaningful reply.
Now that the Albion have formally stepped into the fray I wonder if certain parties will wish to capitalise on the additional publicity and cause similar disruption on match days to ensure that the dispute is kept firmly on the front burner. Any related cancellations surrounding the Fulham game tomorrow are bound to aggravate the feelings of supporters and test their sense of humour, particularly with a 30k crowd and large away contingent.
I would like to think that forthcoming evening home game against Leeds will really focus the minds of all concerned to avoid a repeat of the shambles around the Villa game. Now the Club has expressed safety concerns in writing I suppose it will be obliged to make further contingency plans at great expense to do what it reasonably can to ensure the safety of fans and staff travelling to/from the game. Even so I suspect the tolerance of Albion and Leeds fans will be tested - and one hopes those nice Yorkshire folk show a degree of patience, particularly if kettled for an hour or two at Falmer station.
Unless there is substantive and reliable progress in the dispute then there may be a point at which the Police will be obliged to consider recommending a postponement of the Leeds game in order to avoid safety concerns?
Knowing that Albion fans are renowned for not sitting quietly while they are used as political pawns I don't suppose it would be long before there is some Archer-esque lobbying outside the DfT, in Epsom & Ewell or Blackpool........
Now that the Albion have formally stepped into the fray I wonder if certain parties will wish to capitalise on the additional publicity and cause similar disruption on match days to ensure that the dispute is kept firmly on the front burner. Any related cancellations surrounding the Fulham game tomorrow are bound to aggravate the feelings of supporters and test their sense of humour, particularly with a 30k crowd and large away contingent.
I would like to think that forthcoming evening home game against Leeds will really focus the minds of all concerned to avoid a repeat of the shambles around the Villa game. Now the Club has expressed safety concerns in writing I suppose it will be obliged to make further contingency plans at great expense to do what it reasonably can to ensure the safety of fans and staff travelling to/from the game. Even so I suspect the tolerance of Albion and Leeds fans will be tested - and one hopes those nice Yorkshire folk show a degree of patience, particularly if kettled for an hour or two at Falmer station.
Unless there is substantive and reliable progress in the dispute then there may be a point at which the Police will be obliged to consider recommending a postponement of the Leeds game in order to avoid safety concerns?
Knowing that Albion fans are renowned for not sitting quietly while they are used as political pawns I don't suppose it would be long before there is some Archer-esque lobbying outside the DfT, in Epsom & Ewell or Blackpool........
Ernest
Stupid IDIOT
RMT FURY AS GRAYLING AND GTR TURN DOWN OFFER FROM BRIGHTON AND HOVE ALBION TO BROKER TALKS IN SOUTHERN RAIL DISPUTE
General Secretary Mick Cash said:
“RMT made it clear that the union was prepared to take up the offer of talks between ourselves, Southern Rail and Chris Grayling as suggested by Brighton and Hove Albion FC. The fact that that offer has been turned down flat by both the Government and GTR shows in clear daylight that neither of them have any intention of resolving this dispute. That disgraceful, pig-headed attitude is the root cause of the continuing action.
The union has been calling for a meeting with Chris Grayling for months and its frankly ludicrous that it has taken the intervention of the football club, and the shocking events on Friday night at the Amex Stadium, to force the pace on this. The public will be rightly furious that both him and the company have slammed the door in their faces.
“The appalling situation at Falmer on Friday evening was entirely down to the lack of planning and gross-mismanagement by Southern Rail and the attempt by the company to blame it on the staff is frankly disgraceful."
Ends
General Secretary Mick Cash said:
“RMT made it clear that the union was prepared to take up the offer of talks between ourselves, Southern Rail and Chris Grayling as suggested by Brighton and Hove Albion FC. The fact that that offer has been turned down flat by both the Government and GTR shows in clear daylight that neither of them have any intention of resolving this dispute. That disgraceful, pig-headed attitude is the root cause of the continuing action.
The union has been calling for a meeting with Chris Grayling for months and its frankly ludicrous that it has taken the intervention of the football club, and the shocking events on Friday night at the Amex Stadium, to force the pace on this. The public will be rightly furious that both him and the company have slammed the door in their faces.
“The appalling situation at Falmer on Friday evening was entirely down to the lack of planning and gross-mismanagement by Southern Rail and the attempt by the company to blame it on the staff is frankly disgraceful."
Ends
Peter Grummit
Well-known member
Is there a statement from DfT turning down the meeting?
GT49er
Well-known member
Not quite 'turned down flat', then - just ignoring it and not coming.....................
pearl
Well-known member
u r nutz
Wrong-Direction
Well-known member
- Mar 10, 2013
- 13,417
Was saying today this will end in carnage and people getting hurt after the game.
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The Large One
Who's Next?
The latest release from the Association of British Commuters, the group who are seeking a judicial review in order to force the government to intervene. They are politically neutral.
Legal update: the Department for Transport continues to evade its responsibility to the public
With the daily torment of travelling on the Southern Rail network worse than ever, we are also at the brink of a complete shutdown of service with the probable announcement of drivers’ strikes. The Department for Transport is clearly prepared to allow this situation to develop into a catastrophe even worse than what we have yet experienced, and shows no signs of concern for the effect on the public.
Our legal update
ABC’s legal team has been pursuing FOI requests for almost 3 months now, and recently dispatched its Letter Before Action to the DfT; announcing Grounds for our application to the Court for Judicial Review. We now have news to report.
Freedom of Information requests
After multiple extensions to the deadlines for our FOI requests we have finally received an answer on most of them (one is still outstanding and now under its third extension; due 1st December). It may not surprise you to learn that these answers continue to demonstrate a complete lack of transparency and concern for the public.
Nearly all of our FOI requests have now been refused, citing extensive justifications of ‘commercial sensitivity’ and highlighting the need to conceal information on staff-related issues that “may be likely to undermine GTR’s position in negotiations with the trade unions”.
Consider this point alongside their reliance on the unproven claim of Force Majeure*, which itself relies on the allegation of ‘unofficial strike action’ and now forms the DfT’s main defence for not intervening in the Southern Rail crisis. Many of us believe (in line with David Boyle’s early investigations into the subject) that it was in fact deliberate policies of understaffing that led to the collapse of the network this summer. Amid the horrific breakdown of relations between Southern staff and management, staff declined to work rest days, which was all it took to bring the overstretched network to its knees.
To this day, no evidence has been provided for ‘unofficial strike action’, even while much of the press reports it as fact. The issue now forms the government’s refusal to penalise/terminate Govia, and Transport Secretary Chris Grayling has even stated that he will not conclude this investigation until after the industrial dispute. This in other words, is the smokescreen they are relying on to justify their non-intervention in the so-called ‘franchise’ – behaving as if it is a regular private company instead of their direct subcontractor, working in a close relationship shrouded in secrecy.
Health and Safety monitoring on Southern Rail
As the industrial dispute has worsened, we have also raised our concerns about the lack of health and safety monitoring on the network, and have finally received a response to our questions. We can now confirm that the DfT has made no analysis on the effects on the public from strikes, and no risk analysis pertaining to future strikes. Any such monitoring, they say, would fall under Govia’s remedial plan (which, of course, they refuse to fully disclose). It seems they are unwilling to oversee health and safety on a network that their subcontractor manages for them, despite abundant evidence of life-threatening health and safety risks to the public.
Letter Before Action – their response to our legal grounds
We also received a response to our Letter Before Action this week, which we found highly unsatisfactory. There is a lot of material to analyse and our barristers are currently conducting an in depth review. We look forward to sharing more on this as soon as we are able.
Where do we go from here?
Firstly, do not be disheartened by this news. The DfT are facing a scandal of a generation with the Southern Rail crisis and it is not surprising that they are digging their heels in to avoid the massive embarrassment the truth will cause. We will be pushing this to a Judicial Review and fully expect the Judge to be taking note of their continued evasiveness (the failure to provide transparency is indeed one of our Grounds).
Secondly, since so much of this situation is political, we need to lobby MPs and Ministers harder than ever. The most important target right now is Force Majeure – the smokescreen the DfT use to allow Southern Rail to act with complete impunity. There is no longer any excuse for them to delay in providing a resolution on Force Majeure – the longer they delay, the more it seems that it cannot be proven.
It is also vital that we demand the government urgently steps in to the industrial dispute. Paul Maynard continues to say that he finds the union action ‘inexplicable’ and ‘cannot discern’ why they are striking: statements we consider highly disingenuous. Not only did RMT and ASLEF announce in November 2015 that they would strike on safety grounds, but the RSSB report (on the safety of DOO) itself anticipates it. With or without Peter Wilkinson’s stated intention to “smash the unions”, it is clear that the government want to ride this out and push the industrial dispute to a crisis, with the effect on the public viewed as collateral damage.
The Department for Transport must intervene
Brighton and Hove Albion Football Club and Brighton MP Caroline Lucas have also raised their voices this week, calling for the government to step in to the industrial dispute as a matter of urgency.
More updates soon. In the meantime, let’s stay strong, support each other and think very critically about what we read in the papers….
* Force Majeure - in this instance, the insistence that the ongoing problems are outside of GTR's control (official strikes / unofficial strikes etc.), and therefore they should not be penalised.
Legal update: the Department for Transport continues to evade its responsibility to the public
With the daily torment of travelling on the Southern Rail network worse than ever, we are also at the brink of a complete shutdown of service with the probable announcement of drivers’ strikes. The Department for Transport is clearly prepared to allow this situation to develop into a catastrophe even worse than what we have yet experienced, and shows no signs of concern for the effect on the public.
Our legal update
ABC’s legal team has been pursuing FOI requests for almost 3 months now, and recently dispatched its Letter Before Action to the DfT; announcing Grounds for our application to the Court for Judicial Review. We now have news to report.
Freedom of Information requests
After multiple extensions to the deadlines for our FOI requests we have finally received an answer on most of them (one is still outstanding and now under its third extension; due 1st December). It may not surprise you to learn that these answers continue to demonstrate a complete lack of transparency and concern for the public.
Nearly all of our FOI requests have now been refused, citing extensive justifications of ‘commercial sensitivity’ and highlighting the need to conceal information on staff-related issues that “may be likely to undermine GTR’s position in negotiations with the trade unions”.
Consider this point alongside their reliance on the unproven claim of Force Majeure*, which itself relies on the allegation of ‘unofficial strike action’ and now forms the DfT’s main defence for not intervening in the Southern Rail crisis. Many of us believe (in line with David Boyle’s early investigations into the subject) that it was in fact deliberate policies of understaffing that led to the collapse of the network this summer. Amid the horrific breakdown of relations between Southern staff and management, staff declined to work rest days, which was all it took to bring the overstretched network to its knees.
To this day, no evidence has been provided for ‘unofficial strike action’, even while much of the press reports it as fact. The issue now forms the government’s refusal to penalise/terminate Govia, and Transport Secretary Chris Grayling has even stated that he will not conclude this investigation until after the industrial dispute. This in other words, is the smokescreen they are relying on to justify their non-intervention in the so-called ‘franchise’ – behaving as if it is a regular private company instead of their direct subcontractor, working in a close relationship shrouded in secrecy.
Health and Safety monitoring on Southern Rail
As the industrial dispute has worsened, we have also raised our concerns about the lack of health and safety monitoring on the network, and have finally received a response to our questions. We can now confirm that the DfT has made no analysis on the effects on the public from strikes, and no risk analysis pertaining to future strikes. Any such monitoring, they say, would fall under Govia’s remedial plan (which, of course, they refuse to fully disclose). It seems they are unwilling to oversee health and safety on a network that their subcontractor manages for them, despite abundant evidence of life-threatening health and safety risks to the public.
Letter Before Action – their response to our legal grounds
We also received a response to our Letter Before Action this week, which we found highly unsatisfactory. There is a lot of material to analyse and our barristers are currently conducting an in depth review. We look forward to sharing more on this as soon as we are able.
Where do we go from here?
Firstly, do not be disheartened by this news. The DfT are facing a scandal of a generation with the Southern Rail crisis and it is not surprising that they are digging their heels in to avoid the massive embarrassment the truth will cause. We will be pushing this to a Judicial Review and fully expect the Judge to be taking note of their continued evasiveness (the failure to provide transparency is indeed one of our Grounds).
Secondly, since so much of this situation is political, we need to lobby MPs and Ministers harder than ever. The most important target right now is Force Majeure – the smokescreen the DfT use to allow Southern Rail to act with complete impunity. There is no longer any excuse for them to delay in providing a resolution on Force Majeure – the longer they delay, the more it seems that it cannot be proven.
It is also vital that we demand the government urgently steps in to the industrial dispute. Paul Maynard continues to say that he finds the union action ‘inexplicable’ and ‘cannot discern’ why they are striking: statements we consider highly disingenuous. Not only did RMT and ASLEF announce in November 2015 that they would strike on safety grounds, but the RSSB report (on the safety of DOO) itself anticipates it. With or without Peter Wilkinson’s stated intention to “smash the unions”, it is clear that the government want to ride this out and push the industrial dispute to a crisis, with the effect on the public viewed as collateral damage.
The Department for Transport must intervene
Brighton and Hove Albion Football Club and Brighton MP Caroline Lucas have also raised their voices this week, calling for the government to step in to the industrial dispute as a matter of urgency.
More updates soon. In the meantime, let’s stay strong, support each other and think very critically about what we read in the papers….
* Force Majeure - in this instance, the insistence that the ongoing problems are outside of GTR's control (official strikes / unofficial strikes etc.), and therefore they should not be penalised.
ManOfSussex
We wunt be druv
I see the pre-match brief email takes the 'full matchday rail service' advice from Southern with a pinch of salt too.
As Southern have been running understaffed and reliant on overtime for quite some time. (just like Royal Mail)
I guess the staff are taking a pretty hefty hit in the pay packet, and yet staying resolute to the 'cause'.
If nothing else that should tell the bosses they need another plan.
I guess the staff are taking a pretty hefty hit in the pay packet, and yet staying resolute to the 'cause'.
If nothing else that should tell the bosses they need another plan.
Norman Potting
Well-known member
For the first time I am not exactly looking forward to this game, no problem with the 90' of playing time just the potential hassle of delays - normally on a Saturday wouldn't be too fussed but tomorrow we are keen to get home asap for family event reasons.
With regard to Saturday services I assumed that these were based on the normal non-match service of 2 x Seaford - Brighton, 1 x Ore-Brighton, 1 x Ashford - Brighton and 1 x Lewes and 1 x Lewes - Brighton each hour ie 5 trains travelling on the Lewes - Brighton section. I assume the only difference is that perhaps the trains may be longer and have a vague recollection that the Ashford train (usually only 2 car) terminates at Eastbourne with a "proper length" train running from their to Brighton. Any trainspotters out their care to confirm?
With regard to Saturday services I assumed that these were based on the normal non-match service of 2 x Seaford - Brighton, 1 x Ore-Brighton, 1 x Ashford - Brighton and 1 x Lewes and 1 x Lewes - Brighton each hour ie 5 trains travelling on the Lewes - Brighton section. I assume the only difference is that perhaps the trains may be longer and have a vague recollection that the Ashford train (usually only 2 car) terminates at Eastbourne with a "proper length" train running from their to Brighton. Any trainspotters out their care to confirm?
Weatherman
New member
- Jun 10, 2008
- 323
You weren't being serious were you ?
Is driving an option? Parking in The Bridge, whilst expensive, means you are master of your own destiny.
Otherwise, scarper on (or, shhhhhhhhhh, just before) 90 minutes so you're on the first train outta there.
B-right-on
Living the dream
They are Politicians so they dont turn things 'down flat' but they give a load of waffle that doesnt answer the question and do what they want to.
As an aside, if you Google Chris Grubb, he has been there 2 3/4 months and is earning a whopping £1,500 a day (=£127,500 since 1 Sept) and yes the service is getting worse. Nice earner that bloke is on.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...uters-will-be-paid-1500-per-day-a3335461.html
Ernest
Stupid IDIOT
One of the massive f**k ups with privatisation is that the rail companies have to pay decent some would say large wages to the staff especially drivers as Stagecoach found out when they took over in 1996, made drivers redundant and then discovered you haven't got much of a rail company without train drivers.
This is what is behind the dispute the drivers wages are a major factor in the cost of running a railway hence Wilkinson/DfT wanting to smash them, smash ASLEF & the RMT so they can then cut wages and make more profit for the likes of GOVIA and Virgin.
The problem with drivers overtime is that firstly they are paid well so don't need overtime and secondly that if they work overtime they go into the higher tax bracket meaning they work a day extra for basically nothing once it is taxed.
Which is why you need a full establishment of drivers at each depot to be able to run a full timetable without disruption and even a year ago SASTA admitted they didn't and weren't able to so it makes you wonder about the brains behind it knowing that you need the co-operation of your staff to be able to deliver to the public an advertised timetable. The one thing they couldn't handle was no or few staff making themselves available to work days off etc and this is exactly what they did.