Has the High Court abolished school term time?

blockhseagull · May 15, 2016

Green Cross Code Man said:
No you were not, at least not exclusively. You said teachers can be very sanctimonious about leave taken in term. That is completely irrelevant by implication, as teachers don't have any say at all about leave.

In my experience, term does wind down, however, to say that they do no work at all for several days is wrong. Even when I was a kid, children enjoyed a more relaxed summer term, usually the last day would be a fun day, but certainly not for three days or a week. Teachers have a very demanding job and there is very little room for freedom these days anyway.

And in any case, going back to there original argument, I think kids with good attendance should be allowed on holiday with their family in term time.

I said if those are the rules they are the rules so not sure where you get I'm blaming ALL teachers.

And in my experience neither of my children who are based at different schools seem to do anything of any note for the last 'half week' they are at school and haven't done for several years. My point is if he government make the rules and the headTEACHERS have to abide by them I understand. However teach my kids something if they are there, the amount of times they have come home in the final week of school and said they have spent the day playing connect 4 and watching DVD's is shocking. I expect my kids to be taught when they are at school and not have a number of 'fun days' at the end of term which serve no purpose.

In fact the last day of term last year they spent the whole morning in 'tutor' time and then finished at lunchtime ? Can you tell me why this is necessary ?

peterward · May 15, 2016

Honky Tonx said:
Following yesterday's ruling, has school term time been abolished? It's seems ridiculous that parents can take their children off on holiday willy nilly. One idea might be to scrap half term to make up for lost learning time. I think we are on the road to anarchy.

Parents are responsible for their children, not education authorities. I think this ruling is excellent if parents are responsible. I dont think a 7 year old for instance missing a week of school is threatening to their university chances and if like many parents, with the sick profiteering of holiday firms in half terms, a family cannot afford the outrageous 3x prices in half terms, that family bonding time and even educational time if used to experience a different culture, and places of interest is not wasted.

As a responsible parent with a massive interest and involvement in my childs education and development i dont need a nanny state telling me what i can and cant do or a 'one size fits all' policy of trying to extract money out of me if i take a week of family bonding time thats not in a half term. I cant get any leave in half terms, its always denied due to nature of profession, should we never holiday as a family?

Green Cross Code Man · May 15, 2016

blockhseagull said:
I said if those are the rules they are the rules so not sure where you get I'm blaming ALL teachers.

And in my experience neither of my children who are based at different schools seem to do anything of any note for the last 'half week' they are at school and haven't done for several years. My point is if he government make the rules and the headTEACHERS have to abide by them I understand. However teach my kids something if they are there, the amount of times they have come home in the final week of school and said they have spent the day playing connect 4 and watching DVD's is shocking. I expect my kids to be taught when they are at school and not have a number of 'fun days' at the end of term which serve no purpose.

In fact the last day of term last year they spent the whole morning in 'tutor' time and then finished at lunchtime ? Can you tell me why this is necessary ?

Perhaps it was unfortunate that I picked your post to quote. I was responding to the general comments aimed at teachers regarding the issue of in term holiday time, which as I and others have stated, have zilch to do with teachers.

I have worked in schools and in each of them, they have never had 3 days watching DVDs etc. Perhaps you need an explanation for that from your respective children's schools as that sounds wrong and you are right to be annoyed.

As for the tutor time, that is a question for that school, no doubt, whether you or your child found value in the use of time, the school will have a reason for it.

Wardy · May 15, 2016

There are a few problems here.

Firstly is that the law did not define what 'good attendance' and 'special circumstances' where. This meant the High Court could only go on normal definitions of these phrases. Even if they did not think it was a good idea they did not really have any choice. The IoW tried to say that the rules should only be applied to the 7 days in question, while the father said it should apply to the whole school year. - The Answer is the government will change the law to make it clearer.

Secondly, a holiday is good for children in the same way it is good for adults. Also it is good for a family to spend time away together. I am lucky in that I can afford to take my children away in the school holidays. However for a number of parents this is simply not an option. Either the cost is prohibitive or they have a job that means getting time off during school holidays is either very hard or impossible.

One solution for me would be to allow parents to take their children out for one week a year. However before it was agreed, the parents, the child and the teacher would sit down and agree on a some work that needed to be done as part of the holiday. This could be dependant on the age of the child. For example if the child is 8, maybe they need to write a diary about the holiday and if going abroad maybe learn how to write and say a number of key phrases or words. If the child is 11 or 12 then maybe they need to do some kind of project.

MrSnuggles · May 15, 2016

I got fined £60 because my son went to visit his Mum who lives in California. He hadnt seen her for over two years. He had to be in school time as their summer holidays ran from May to July. The head teacher said it wasn't a good enough reason and fined me £60 even though he had well over 90% attendence! Outrageous!! You have no redress in law and the local authority can't overturn a head teachers decision. I'm not naming names but Mr Payne of the Causeway school in Eastbourne, you know who you are!!

Green Cross Code Man · May 15, 2016

peterward said:
Parents are responsible for their children, not education authorities. I think this ruling is excellent if parents are responsible. I dont think a 7 year old for instance missing a week of school is threatening to their university chances and if like many parents, with the sick profiteering of holiday firms in half terms, a family cannot afford the outrageous 3x prices in half terms, that family bonding time and even educational time if used to experience a different culture, and places of interest is not wasted.

As a responsible parent with a massive interest and involvement in my childs education and development i dont need a nanny state telling me what i can and cant do or a 'one size fits all' policy of trying to extract money out of me if i take a week of family bonding time thats not in a half term. I cant get any leave in half terms, its always denied due to nature of profession, should we never holiday as a family?

Excellent post!

Last Summer · May 15, 2016

I'm taking my daughter out of school soon for a week.

Simple reason being it's a sh*te load cheaper during term time.
If I'm going away, I'm going to get the best deal for my budget. 5* during term time or 3* during holidays... no brainer for me.

Will my daughter's education Suffer?... Doubt it very much. She's already streets ahead of the rest of her class. So in theory, by me taking her away for the week, it actually let's the rest of her class catch up, thus ensuring a more balanced classroom.

Green Cross Code Man · May 15, 2016

MrSnuggles said:
I got fined £60 because my son went to visit his Mum who lives in California. He hadnt seen her for over two years. He had to be in school time as their summer holidays ran from May to July. The head teacher said it wasn't a good enough reason and fined me £60 even though he had well over 90% attendence! Outrageous!! You have no redress in law and the local authority can't overturn a head teachers decision. I'm not naming names but Mr Payne of the Causeway school in Eastbourne, you know who you are!!

That kind of situation is outrageous. It's totally right for your son to see his mum. That is better than a couple of weeks in the classroom IMO.

Westdene Seagull · May 15, 2016

Green Cross Code Man said:
Complete rubbish. I reiterate, this situation has NOTHING to do with teachers. And incidentally, teachers pay has fallen behind in real terms compared to similarly qualified professionals in the last twenty years.

I'm afraid it does have something to do with teachers - they are acting as the informers and the Heads as the enforcers of government policy. Teachers are one of the professions that regularly stand up to government policy they don't agree with yet have remained pretty much silent in this so one can only deduce they support the policy.

As for pay, if their pay has reduced then you'd think they might be a little more thoughtful around all the demands for money.

Demands from my step daughters school in the second week of term last September were ( all to be paid within two weeks ) :

> Money for art materials - REFUSED
> Money for design materials - REFUSED
> Donation towards the school library - small donation given
> Money for the school fund - REFUSED
> Deposit money for a school trip with the balance two weeks later - only 50% paid
> A statement that come the end of the current half term Van footwear would not be allowed and only leather shoes ( costing double that of Vans ) would be allowed - stinking email sent to Head refusing to comply as we had only just replaced her Vans with new ones.

Teachers and schools just really don't think before they send out these demands for money.

nicko31 · May 15, 2016

peterward said:
Parents are responsible for their children, not education authorities. I think this ruling is excellent if parents are responsible. I dont think a 7 year old for instance missing a week of school is threatening to their university chances and if like many parents, with the sick profiteering of holiday firms in half terms, a family cannot afford the outrageous 3x prices in half terms, that family bonding time and even educational time if used to experience a different culture, and places of interest is not wasted.

As a responsible parent with a massive interest and involvement in my childs education and development i dont need a nanny state telling me what i can and cant do or a 'one size fits all' policy of trying to extract money out of me if i take a week of family bonding time thats not in a half term. I cant get any leave in half terms, its always denied due to nature of profession, should we never holiday as a family?

100%

Interesting to see if they try and increase the penalties with the new law

Green Cross Code Man · May 15, 2016

Westdene Seagull said:
I'm afraid it does have something to do with teachers - they are acting as the informers and the Heads as the enforcers of government policy. Teachers are one of the professions that regularly stand up to government policy they don't agree with yet have remained pretty much silent in this so one can only deduce they support the policy.

As for pay, if their pay has reduced then you'd think they might be a little more thoughtful around all the demands for money.

Demands from my step daughters school in the second week of term last September were ( all to be paid within two weeks ) :

> Money for art materials - REFUSED
> Money for design materials - REFUSED
> Donation towards the school library - small donation given
> Money for the school fund - REFUSED
> Deposit money for a school trip with the balance two weeks later - only 50% paid
> A statement that come the end of the current half term Van footwear would not be allowed and only leather shoes ( costing double that of Vans ) would be allowed - stinking email sent to Head refusing to comply as we had only just replaced her Vans with new ones.

Teachers and schools just really don't think before they send out these demands for money.

Sorry but you are wrong. The informer thing? Is this Nazi Germany? Parents make requests to a HEADTEACHER, not the class teacher. Their union is a totally different one as they are employed under different contracts. So this issue is NOTHING to do with class teachers and therefore for them to take industrial action about it would be ludicrous.

I do however have sympathy about constant requests for money. Personally I agree with you that this should stop. My children's junior school was like that and I do not agree with it. But that again is nothing to do with class teachers. That is a management thing.

macky · May 15, 2016

narly101 said:
Of course I have thanks, never taken out of school for a "holiday" when I was a kid, and had plenty of great family holidays. Only went abroad twice before I was 18, and one of those was Scotland.

Now I've got a kid of my own, and a wife who is a teacher, guess who can't take holidays out of term. So when people say, the holidays are soooooo expensive, remember that there are some who don't have a choice when it comes to spending the money that demand and supply dictates. Simple economics.

Life never said it was fair, and the sooner people realise that the better.

Your wife's very lucky she get's to spend over ten weeks a year with her children

virtual22 · May 15, 2016

My eldest has 100% attendance certificates for most years he has been at school, my youngest isn't far behind. I would never take them out in years ten and eleven. Yet a few years ago when money was really tight, we hadn't been away for years and as a single parent I couldn't afford to take them. However, the school had a blanket refusal of all term time holidays. They didn't even look at their almost perfect attendance, it was just a no. The result, we couldn't afford a holiday abroad again that year.

Eventually I saved up enough to take them in the holidays but I feel travel is educational, it broadens the mind, seeing how other cultures live, etc. If discretion was truly applied by the schools I would back the policy but it's not. I'm the parent, I'm in charge of my kids up-brining, schools are there to educate my children, not micro manage every aspect of their lives which they feel they have a right to do these days.

sussex_guy2k2 · May 15, 2016

This decision is right up there with the petition to give women free choice about whether or not to wear high heels to work when it's part of the dress code in terms of its lunacy. The High Court really have opened the floodgates with this one, and the results aren't likely to be positive.

Green Cross Code Man · May 15, 2016

virtual22 said:
My eldest has 100% attendance certificates for most years he has been at school, my youngest isn't far behind. I would never take them out in years ten and eleven. Yet a few years ago when money was really tight, we hadn't been away for years and as a single parent I couldn't afford to take them. However, the school had a blanket refusal of all term time holidays. They didn't even look at their almost perfect attendance, it was just a no. The result, we couldn't afford a holiday abroad again that year.

Eventually I saved up enough to take them in the holidays but I feel travel is educational, it broadens the mind, seeing how other cultures live, etc. If discretion was truly applied by the schools I would back the policy but it's not. I'm the parent, I'm in charge of my kids up-brining, schools are there to educate my children, not micro manage every aspect of their lives which they feel they have a right to do these days.

I support your post, however discretion is not allowed for holidays (it should be in my view). That is not the fault of the schools, headteachers or teachers in general. The blame lies with the government who make the rules and their agency, Ofsted who implement them.

sussex_guy2k2 · May 15, 2016

virtual22 said:
My eldest has 100% attendance certificates for most years he has been at school, my youngest isn't far behind. I would never take them out in years ten and eleven. Yet a few years ago when money was really tight, we hadn't been away for years and as a single parent I couldn't afford to take them. However, the school had a blanket refusal of all term time holidays. They didn't even look at their almost perfect attendance, it was just a no. The result, we couldn't afford a holiday abroad again that year.

Eventually I saved up enough to take them in the holidays but I feel travel is educational, it broadens the mind, seeing how other cultures live, etc. If discretion was truly applied by the schools I would back the policy but it's not. I'm the parent, I'm in charge of my kids up-brining, schools are there to educate my children, not micro manage every aspect of their lives which they feel they have a right to do these days.

I totally appreciate where you're coming from and travel is vital to any child's mind being broadened. Unfortunately, most parents aren't capable of bringing up their children properly and don't know what's best for them, and most parents don't truly appreciate the impact that taking their child out of school can have on their education because many parents within the UK simply don't value the education system.

And with 85,000 fines this year (which clearly doesn't amount to all of the cases that will be discussed), there simply isn't the time to deal with these situations on a case by case basis in courts, so you need a blanket rule. The fact of the matter is, if you're taking them out of school during term time so you can get a vastly reduced holiday price, then a fine of £120 (or something similar), is something you just have to factor into the holiday price. I'm genuinely surprised that the High Court have made such an impractical, anarchical decision.

Surrey_Albion · May 15, 2016

macky said:
Your wife's very lucky she get's to spend over ten weeks a year with her children

I think you will find teacher end up paying more for holidays because half term is when prices sky rocket and also, are you sitting down as this may come as a shock to you, teachers have WORK to do during school holidays.

macky · May 15, 2016

Surrey_Albion said:
I think you will find teacher end up paying more for holidays because half term is when prices sky rocket and also, are you sitting down as this may come as a shock to you, teachers have WORK to do during school holidays.

I used to work at schools during the holidays never saw many turning up to start work at nine

Westdene Seagull · May 15, 2016

Surrey_Albion said:
teachers have WORK to do during school holidays.

My ex-wife is a teacher ( and was when I was married to her ), my sister is a teacher, my cousin is a teacher and my sister-in-law is a teacher and I can assure you this statement is misleading. Around 14 weeks leave a year and at best I'd suggest they work 2 days out of every half term holiday and 4 days out of every end of term holiday. Add them up and it's just over 3 weeks - leaving at least 10 weeks. Compare that to the 4 weeks most people get and I'm afraid I have no sympathy for the 'teachers work in holidays' statement.

1066familyman · May 15, 2016

I quite like the idea of discretion for head teachers. Although I accept that this could be difficult, particularly in larger primary schools and secondary schools.

We've only taken ours out of school once for a holiday. No exam year for any of them, all of them doing well and with yet another year of 100% attendance in the bag.
The two separate secondary schools both flatly refused to authorise the absence for our two eldest (we had a finger waving letter waiting for us on return but no fines) The primary school for our two youngest authorized it. The head teacher was approachable and said in light of everything (we'd had 4 kids attend the school and she knew their progress and attendance over the years) she'd authorize it. Her only stipulation was that our two kids write a diary of the trip (we drove down to Italy, with overnight stops in France and Switzerland) and present it to their class teacher afterwards.
The kids only missed 3 days school, learnt plenty from the trip, especially with writing the diaries full of educational info on the countries we visited. All in all I'd say everyone was a winner, but we wouldn't make a habit of taking them out of school for holidays ( we value education highly, aside from the fact that we can't afford regular holidays anyway).

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