[Football] HMRC

BensGrandad said:

If the figure dropped below 56% you needed paper proof of promotions etc to explain the drop. I retired 17 years ago but wouldnt want a pub or any other business now, as you say there is too much red tape as well as trying to make the business profitable.

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NooBHA said:

In fact

Not even the Football Associations pay for International Appearances that way. The FAs of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland must pay appearance monies direct to the Club they represent and the club then deducts Tax and NIC at source before paying to the player

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Buzzer said:

I'm not sure that's right. The England players all donate their England appearance fees to the charity “England Footballers Foundation support Cancer Research”. Anyone making donations to charities via their payroll does so using the Payroll Giving scheme which allows donations to be made without being charged tax and there is no upper limit on the amount they can donate.

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NooBHA said:

That doesn't work and never has done.

A well known former player by the name of David Beckham. His Tax Advisers threatened to do a ''Test Case'' on this. They put it to HMRC that they intended to invoice Manchester United for his Salary via his company on the grounds that his salary former only a minor part of his annual income and as such they were entitled to treat this as fee income as opposed to Schedule E Employment income.

They were told in no uncertain terms That if they even made an attempt to do this then HMRC would fight it to the Highest Laws of the land because it would threaten the whole of the UK Tax Laws in general. Not only did they threaten to fight that through the Courts but they told that particular firm of Advisers that they would also move against them for ''Malpractice'' and seek to have their Licence to Practice revoked.

There is nothing to stop players having fee income from image rights or Sponsorship deals or TV income through their companies but in no way can they have their Club Employer income paid that way.

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NooBHA said:

I am not saying they can't do that. BUT if the player decides to retain the payment himself the FAs have to distribute it via the club. - That is fact

It is different for what is known as a ''Pool Fund'' - That's when you get to World Cups and European Championships where Sponsorships are secured by the FAs for those Competitions. Those pots are split equally by the 24 man or how ever many players are named in the squad.

They can be distributed to the players by not paying via the Club. And the only reason they can legally do that is because the fees are not deemed to be coming from the FAs. They are deemed to be coming from multiple source Sponsorships

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FatSuperman said:

All very true I suppose, although I take issue with some of the stuff HMRC are doing, or perhaps trying to do (I'm not sure it's approved yet). I believe that they are changing the legislation, and backdating it a decade (something like that). So something that was previously 'just a loophole', will now be considered unpaid tax. It's absolutely right that they close this and go after all offenders, but surely backdating it is seriously risky.

I worry massively if they do this because I run a Ltd co for my work and whilst I'm currently on the right side of the legislation, I have no idea what they might do down the line.

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Buzzer said:

I think you're missing the point. It doesn't matter one iota where the money comes from or who ultimately pays it to the players, if a player makes a donation via payroll to a charity it is tax free. You said that they make payments net of tax and I'm really not sure that's correct. There's no special rule for football clubs wen it comes to Payroll Giving.

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BensGrandad said:

That was in 1983 and from my days on Surrey FA I know that Crystal Palace never completed a P & L to the County FA as required by FA Rules and they always argued that CPFC had no employees they were all employed by Matthews Butchers, that Raymond Bloye owned, as PR Representatives and they in turn allowed them to play football for CPFC. The accounts for Matthews Butchers were lodged with Companies House so they returned a Nil Income Nil Expenditure return. that again was in the 80s. Surrey FA even obtained advice from their accountants and auditors and from the FA and were toldit was legal and hat CPFC were right on the border line as to legality and their dealings were watched closely

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NooBHA said:

The Pope was still an Altar Boy then

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weststander said:

now he enjoys altar boys.

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NooBHA said:

No - I didn't say they make them NET OF TAX

A player gets paid say £5k for an England appearance

The FA pays £5K to say Man United for that player

If that player deciced to keep the £5K then Man United need to deduct tax and NIC and pay the balance to the player via his salary

If the player decides to pay it to Charity then £5K just gets paid over to that particular charity and the player is not taxed on it.

The FA never get involved in taxing it at all

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NooBHA said:

The FAs of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland must pay appearance monies direct to the Club they represent and the club then deducts Tax and NIC at source before paying to the player

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Buzzer said:

Sorry. My typo. I meant received the money net of tax. Your original comment though was

;

You made no mention of charities, just that English, Scottish and Welsh internationals get paid their FA fees by their club after tax deducted. That suggested, to me at least, that you weren't aware of the arrangement that English players have. That's all I was trying to explain. It's no biggie.

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Stat Brother said:

"from my days on Surrey FA"


I assume everyone had a shot of tequila?

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BensGrandad said:

I fully accept that but what particular aspect of it makes players/ clubs believe they are not liable to declare it and pay the tax as they do any other income. Is it to do with the fact that most players are now private sole traders for tax purposes? I know that when Gary Stevens left us for Tottenham his company Gary Stevens Enterprises were paid by Spurs and his company then paid him.

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Super Steve Earle said:

Come on BG. How can you possibly state as fact that most players are now private sole traders for tax payers? That is your biggest load of BS yet and that's saying something.

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Weststander said:

This.

ALL players are employees, suffering the full whack of PAYE and employees national insurance on their earnings. Any other arrangement would be criminal tax evasion by the clubs as employers.

A few players also earn from image rights and seemingly some, possibly in collusion with clubs, might have sought to run these through limited companies even though the club was paying. Tax authorities in the UK and Spain for example, have been investigating these cases.

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