Greece crisis: Europe on edge over snap election

Herr Tubthumper · Jul 6, 2015

Pavilionaire said:
I can't say I'm surprised that a country that has been bankrupted 5 times before voted not to pay back the money they've borrowed.

I saw their Finance Minister tonight giving an interview - in a T-shirt. They couldn't give a flying fig.

This Greek government, and many previous Greek governments, should hang their heads in shame. Blame the EU all you want but you can't escape the fact the blame for this total mess lies solely with the Greeks. They're responsible for their actions, no one else.

Boroseagull · Jul 6, 2015

Herr Tubthumper said:
This Greek government, and many previous Greek governments, should hang their heads in shame. Blame the EU all you want but you can't escape the fact the blame for this total mess lies solely with the Greeks. They're responsible for their actions, no one else.

Good lord......for once I'm agreeing with you!

wellquickwoody · Jul 6, 2015

Boroseagull said:
Good lord......for once I'm agreeing with you!

Me too!

Lower West Stander · Jul 6, 2015

wellquickwoody said:
Me too!

And me!

Westdene Seagull · Jul 6, 2015

Herr Tubthumper said:
This Greek government, and many previous Greek governments, should hang their heads in shame. Blame the EU all you want but you can't escape the fact the blame for this total mess lies solely with the Greeks. They're responsible for their actions, no one else.

I know your faith in the Europe 'experiment' ( in some of peoples eyes you can replace that word with enslavement ) blinds you somewhat but the blame can't SOLELY lie with the Greek governments.

Remember, France and Germany turned a blind eye to Greece not having an economy that adhered to the rules of joining the Euro. France and Germany lent billions on the CONDITION that a percentage was spent on buying weapons from them and giving German firms huge infrastructure projects. In other words France, Germany and the EU BRIBED Greece.

Now Germany, France and the EU along with successive Greek governments have got Greece to this place they are punishing the normal Greek for it - most of whom really had nothing to do with the corrupt deals. The EU claims to be for it's 'citizens' ( it's word, not mine, and it indicates it believes it is a state in it's own right - which it isn't ) - well it is now quite happy to see normal Greeks plunged into poverty, it wants to see the poorest 200,000 Greek pensioners even poorer, it doesn't mind that Greeks no longer have a health service worth speaking about, that Greeks are dying whilst sitting on chairs in hospital corridors because they can't afford enough beds. Yet Germany and France still want paying for their weapons - f**k the fact people are dying, it matters not, just as long as WE get paid.

The EU is a disgrace, a corrupt disgrace, and while you lord it up thanks to the Germany economy that is to the detriment of the Greek citizen. The moment something happens to the German economy don't expect the EU to help, they will be too busy screwing you into the ground to care.

The last time a nation was so heavily punished, to the point of poverty and death, it was because of the Treaty of Versailles. It created hyper inflation and poverty on an unknown scale in a developed Western country. That country was of course your beloved Germany. The citizens turned to an extremist, that nice Mr Hitler. Now while I'm not suggesting the Greek PM is in the same league, the EU must be f**king stupid not to see history has a huge risk of repeating itself if the Greeks keep getting punished. We learned after WW2 that it was better to work with the new Germanys rather than punish them - so much so we wrote of 50% of their debt ( some of which was owned to Greece ).

Yet now we have corrupt money grabbing EU politicians and officials falling over themselves to punish Greece. It's nothing to do with assisting a country to get back on it's feet and everything to do with power and money. The EU makes FIFA look clean - at least FIFA has had it's account pass audit. No, the quicker this disgusting, dictotrial, power hungry corrupt organisation is brought down the better.

Kevlar · Jul 6, 2015

just to say I am very impressed by the Greek electorate.After all the
pressure they have come under all the fear of collapse if they didn't
unconditionally except austerity.They have understood the Einstein definition
of insanity doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a
different outcome..The terms of successive bailouts have been destroying the
Greek economy ,with unemployment of the under 25's persistently stuck at
over 50% it has been a monumental disaster.
The problem is the neo liberal groupthink is so firmly established that it still hard
to see anything but an inadequate compromise.The fundamental contradictions
of monetary union without political union remain.The political difficulty of a multi
national central bank becoming the lender of last resort.
The ECB established a program to buy unlimited amounts of government bonds
in the secondary market to erasure the finacial markets(the hordes of the elites wealth)
it is time they used that compactly for the generation in Greece and accross much of the
rest of the Eurozone which are being left on the scrapheap

Triggaaar · Jul 6, 2015

Chicken Runner61 said:
Europe will just print a load more Euros to cover what they lost in Greece - thats the joy of paper money - mind you its an awful lot of money..........

Are you saying they need to invest in some new inc cartridges?

Guy Crouchback · Jul 6, 2015

Even in poker bluffing has its limits, and the EU should finally call Greeks' bluff.

The Union cannot works this way, it cannot bow down to every wish of populists just to avoid some, by and large, imaginary destabilisation of the eurozone. Greek GNP is around 1.5% of the overall EU GNP, so even in the worst case scenario there will be no major destabilisation of European economy. Europe is about honesty and integrity, it's about proper standards of banking, business and administration culture; these standards made Europe what it is today--a place where people from all over the world come to live, work and build better future for their families. If a country shows open despise for the the aforementioned pillars of European culture, it should seriously reconsider its membership in the EU.

If Greeks are allowed to get away with this, if Syriza is allowed to get away with this, then we have populists in other countries waiting to follow in Greek footsteps in foreseeable fututre, and that would mean a complete and utter disaster for Europe.

Triggaaar · Jul 6, 2015

Herr Tubthumper said:
This Greek government, and many previous Greek governments, should hang their heads in shame. Blame the EU all you want but you can't escape the fact the blame for this total mess lies solely with the Greeks. They're responsible for their actions, no one else.

Boroseagull said:
Good lord......for once I'm agreeing with you!

wellquickwoody said:
Me too!

Lower West Stander said:
And me!

Blimey, for once in this thread I'm disagreeing. Before Tubthumper's post I was thumbing everyone so much it was like a weird gay Carry On. I completely agree that successive Greek governments, put in by lazy Greek citizens who didn't work enough and didn't pay their tax when they did, have had this coming. But they aren't solely responsible for it, and surely only someone from Germany et al could suggest they are.

Westdene Seagull · Jul 6, 2015

Guy Crouchback said:
it cannot bow down to every wish of populists

You mean the EU can't allow democracy ? I guess you're right - just look at those countries that dared to vote against the Lisbon Treaty !

Guy Crouchback said:
Europe is about honesty and integrity,

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha - errr, audited accounts ? Receipted expenses ?

Diablo · Jul 6, 2015

Let it be a lesson to all who demand more handouts for social services,pensioners,schools,hospitals etc etc. It is really simple Spend more than you get, be it country,school,hospital or household and you will be in trouble.

You cannot expect the richer(more sensible) country or Person to bail you out. Whilst we all have sympathy for the man on the street, I for one have none for their country which has spent irresponsibly for many years.

Herr Tubthumper · Jul 6, 2015

Boroseagull said:
Good lord......for once I'm agreeing with you!

wellquickwoody said:
Me too!

It's monkeys and typewriters. Given the amount of crap I spout it was inevitable that one day I'd type something you agreed with :lolol:

But thank you for endorsements :thumbsup:

Guy Crouchback · Jul 6, 2015

@Westdene Seagull: You can laugh as much as you want, mate. I know there is an exception to every rule, but the fact is that the well-being that most European citizens enjoy nowadays has not been built through "audited accounts", "receipted expenses" or "creative accounting", but through hard work of European citizens and adhering to certain standards.

My only worry is that the EU will once again bow down to Greece, and that they will stay in the eurozone and cause much more mayhem than their exit would...

The Greek economy is in free fall and the banks - without further liquidity assistance from the ECB - will collapse. Indeed the economic situation has deteriorated so sharply that any bailout deal will have to be toughened. On 20 July Greece has to pay over 3bn euros to the ECB. If it defaults the Central Bank will withdraw all funding of Greek banks.

The truth that has not been shared with German voters is that Greece will need a third bailout if it is ever to recover. How much will be needed? Perhaps 50bn over the next three years. As it stands Greece's debt is not sustainable and no deal will survive unless it is addressed.

In the next few days Europe's leaders will have to show imagination and boldness to save Greece and to save the reputation of the European Project.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33404992

... and that this will be done on purely political grounds, just to "save the European Project".

Guy Crouchback · Jul 6, 2015

Oh, and that...

Westdene Seagull said:
You mean the EU can't allow democracy?

Democracy, you say... thing is any union, EVERY union, depends on the same rules and laws for all members...or there is no union. If there is a government which suddenly decides: "Nope...we don't like these rules...I don't adhere to them...and you have to accept that because...you know...we decided democratically that these rules are crap!" Then there is no common base for a membership anymore.

Simple as that.

Deleted member 22389 · Jul 6, 2015

I wish politicians here and across the EU would stop doing what they want and listen to the people. The people of Greece have spoken, and good for them, however I can't see Greece being able to leave the EU. Saving the European project at any cost is more important than people. I would love Greece to pull away, bring back their own currency and do well from it. It would prove to the other countries that your better off out. The EU would hate that to happen, because they want everyone doing what they want.

Hotchilidog · Jul 6, 2015

Herr Tubthumper said:
This Greek government, and many previous Greek governments, should hang their heads in shame. Blame the EU all you want but you can't escape the fact the blame for this total mess lies solely with the Greeks. They're responsible for their actions, no one else.

For once I'll have to disagree with you. First of all this Greek government played no part in this, the one responsible was on the losing side of this argument by a large margin. The measures asked of the Greeks would not only have been incredibly crippling to their economy but also fail to achieve the aim of repayment, so it was the right choice to vote no.

Sadly if you want to point the finger anywhere it is the EU, Germany in particular, and the book cooking banks who are responsible. The Germans dropped the ball on this one big time.

That said the time for posturing and finger pointing should be over now. Time to come up with a sensible and workable solution that will benefit both the Greeks and the creditor nations.

Westdene Seagull · Jul 6, 2015

Guy Crouchback said:
Democracy, you say... thing is any union, EVERY union, depends on the same rules and laws for all members...or there is no union. If there is a government which suddenly decides: "Nope...we don't like these rules...I don't adhere to them...and you have to accept that because...you know...we decided democratically that these rules are crap!" Then there is no common base for a membership anymore.

Simple as that.

It's not that straight forward though. The UK is a Union yet there are different rules, regulations and laws in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and generally that seems to work. Yet the EU seems to think that everyone should have the same rules etc. They take no account of democratic decisions - the Lisbon Treaty being a prime example. "What do you mean Ireland voting no ? Now go and try again and this time get the right answer" It's a corruption of democracy and I for one believe that democracy trumps a political and evermore fiscal union any day of the week. Hence why, regardless of the deal Cameron manages to get, I will be voting to get out.

Guy Crouchback · Jul 6, 2015

Your criticism of the EU is not entirely unfounded, WS, but in fundamental things the union needs to demand from her members to adhere to certain standards (in minor issues local rules and regulations may of course be implemented).

Westdene Seagull said:
Hence why, regardless of the deal Cameron manages to get, I will be voting to get out.

I hope the UK will vote to stay in. Without you in the Union it will become even more Franco-German-centric, and I'm not quite sure if that would be a good thing.

symyjym · Jul 6, 2015

Westdene Seagull · Jul 6, 2015

symyjym said:
View attachment 66694

I don't doubt the sentiment of your post but I'm pretty sure Barclays didn't receive a public bailout - it went back to the markets for investment and had billions pumped in from the oil rich Middle East backers.

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