[News] Whiter than white

GT49er · Sep 15, 2018

Postman Pat said:
This seems to fall into the same category of people being offended by baa baa black sheep.

Baa Baa Black Sheep offensive? I should damn well think so!

"One for the master and one for the dame....."

- extolling a near medieval class system of domination and control. Possibly sexist too, but there is a viable argument that at least they are both treated equally, one bag each.......

"....and one for the little boy who lives down the lane"

FFS! Discrimination! Totally sexist! There's girls and trans-gender children living down there too........! But racist? Come on!

(although I suppose a case could be made on the grounds that all white sheep are specifically excluded on the grounds of colour)

Swillis · Sep 15, 2018

There are many phrases that millenials(twats) could somehow equate as racist. Whiter than white, call a spade a spade etc but they are just sayings that we have grown up with and continue to use. There's some that I don't use that my dad would always say, such as play the white man's game. But people just love to be offended, in fact I don't think they are offended but just like to seem important in their mundane little lives, so kick up fuss over nothing. I bet most of these race crusaders don't even know any black people, but like to be seen as right on.

Southern Scouse · Sep 15, 2018

When I joined Sussex Police in 2000, during a presentation at Lewes, I used the term and was pulled up afterwards and had to apologise to the room..,,,,

Triggaaar · Sep 15, 2018

Goldstone1976 said:
How about “calling a spade a spade”? I’ve been told that an Indian-born chap considers it a racist phrase.

Does the original usage of the term have anything to do with race?

The Large One · Sep 15, 2018

Personally, I don't see 'whiter than white' as a racist term. 'White' in this context has long been used to define purity or cleanliness.

I am also not sure how it could be seen as racist. At what point is a non-white person being abused because of their skin colour?

Wozza · Sep 15, 2018

Bakero said:
From the article:

“A notice is issued to inform an officer at the earliest opportunity following an allegation and to safeguard their interests. It in no way indicates that misconduct proceedings will take place.”

The guy is surely in no danger of losing his job. Clickbait.

Nevertheless, he'll have a BLACK mark on his record.

Triggaaar · Sep 15, 2018

Southern Scouse said:
When I joined Sussex Police in 2000, during a presentation at Lewes, I used the term and was pulled up afterwards and had to apologise to the room..,,,,

I don't think 'whiter than white' has anything to do with race. I think it comes from Shakespeare's Venus and Adonis:

'Who sees his true-love in her naked bed,
Teaching the sheets a whiter hue than white,
But, when his glutton eye so full hath fed,
His other agents aim at like delight?
Who is so faint, that dare not be so bold
To touch the fire, the weather being cold?'

http://shakespeare.mit.edu/Poetry/VenusAndAdonis.html

Maybe that's where the washing brand Bold comes from.

The Large One · Sep 15, 2018

Triggaaar said:
Does the original usage of the term have anything to do with race?

It doesn't, but was subsequently used as a derogatory term to describe black people. We don't live in a cultural vacuum, and some phrases just take hold.

A weird one, if we're talking etymologically, is the phrase 'Paki' as an insult. It is a shortened word to describe people from Pakistan, in the same way other central Asian nations and regions are shortened - 'Uzbek', 'Tajik', 'Afghan', 'Turkmen' etc - all with 'istan' removed from the end to note their demonym, and yet, the demonym for people from Pakistan is considered offensive, principally because it was often used in an abusive and offensive manner.

Southern Scouse · Sep 15, 2018

Triggaaar said:
I don't think 'whiter than white' has anything to do with race. I think it comes from Shakespeare's Venus and Adonis:

'Who sees his true-love in her naked bed,
Teaching the sheets a whiter hue than white,
But, when his glutton eye so full hath fed,
His other agents aim at like delight?
Who is so faint, that dare not be so bold
To touch the fire, the weather being cold?'

As I wait here for my true love to arrive no doubt those lines will be firmly implanted in my mind.....

Stumpy Tim · Sep 15, 2018

Wozza said:
Nevertheless, he'll have a BLACK mark on his record.

It should NIP it in the bud though

Goldstone1976 · Sep 15, 2018

Triggaaar said:
Does the original usage of the term have anything to do with race?

I honestly don’t know. I had always used it in the sense of “tell it like it is, directly; don’t beat around the bush”. To be safe, it’s a phrase I’ve stopped using. I can see how it might be interpreted as racist, irrespective of its etymology, so that’s my reasoning.

GT49er · Sep 15, 2018

Goldstone1976 said:
I honestly don’t know. I had always used it in the sense of “tell it like it is, directly; don’t beat around the bush”. To be safe, it’s a phrase I’ve stopped using. I can see how it might be interpreted as racist, irrespective of its etymology, so that’s my reasoning.

In full pedant-Countdown-Susie Dent mode now, but how on earth did a perfectly respectable word for a useful garden implement come to be used as a derogatory word for a person of Afro-Caribbean descent? What's the connection?

Triggaaar · Sep 15, 2018

The Large One said:
It doesn't, but was subsequently used as a derogatory term to describe black people. We don't live in a cultural vacuum, and some phrases just take hold.

Just because some people use a word or phrase inappropriately, doesn't, IMO, mean we can no longer use it.

A weird one, if we're talking etymologically, is the phrase 'Paki' as an insult. It is a shortened word to describe people from Pakistan, in the same way other central Asian nations and regions are shortened - 'Uzbek', 'Tajik', 'Afghan', 'Turkmen' etc - all with 'istan' removed from the end to note their demonym, and yet, the demonym for people from Pakistan is considered offensive, principally because it was often used in an abusive and offensive manner.

I understand your point, although I'm not sure 'Paki' was ever used as a non offensive term, it's always seemed wrong to me. And since that's used to refer to a particular group of people, I think it's fair if they don't want it used, which is different from being told we shouldn't say 'whiter than white' any more.

GT49er · Sep 15, 2018

Goldstone1976 said:
I honestly don’t know. I had always used it in the sense of “tell it like it is, directly; don’t beat around the bush”. To be safe, it’s a phrase I’ve stopped using. I can see how it might be interpreted as racist, irrespective of its etymology, so that’s my reasoning.

In full pedant-Countdown-Susie Dent mode now, but how on earth did a perfectly respectable word for a useful garden implement come to be used as a derogatory word for a person of Afro-Caribbean descent? What's the connection?

Triggaaar · Sep 15, 2018

GT49er said:
In full pedant-Countdown-Susie Dent mode now, but how on earth did a perfectly respectable word for a useful garden implement come to be used as a derogatory word for a person of Afro-Caribbean descent? What's the connection?

In full guess mode - is it anything to do with 'as black as the ace of spades'? That's my guess - simply spades being a black suit of cards.

GT49er · Sep 15, 2018

Triggaaar said:
In full guess mode - is it anything to do with 'as black as the ace of spades'?

Cardist!

Probably as good a guess as any, I suppose.

Brok · Sep 15, 2018

Lots of grey areas in this thread.

Or is that being ageist?

Goldstone1976 · Sep 15, 2018

GT49er said:
In full pedant-Countdown-Susie Dent mode now, but how on earth did a perfectly respectable word for a useful garden implement come to be used as a derogatory word for a person of Afro-Caribbean descent? What's the connection?

Dunno. But, as Trig has guessed, that was my guess too. I’ve never heard the phrase being used as a racist slur, but I can see how it might be interpreted that way, perhaps particularly by someone who wasn’t born here. I wasn’t asked to stop using it - I was merely told that some people view it as a racist comment. It was my decision to stop. Life’s too short to make a stand on something like that, especially when told that some find it offensive combined with me seeing how it could be.

BLOCK F · Sep 15, 2018

Can one still say 'black as night', I wonder

?

Bodian · Sep 15, 2018

The Large One said:
Personally, I don't see 'whiter than white' as a racist term. 'White' in this context has long been used to define purity or cleanliness.

I am also not sure how it could be seen as racist. At what point is a non-white person being abused because of their skin colour?

I suppose the one could lead to the other. That is: White = pure and clean; ergo Black = impure, dirty. So, if someone wished it to be analogous with race, it could be argued that way. But if we are heading that way, there are so many other things that could trip people up.

Remember the Cumberbatch saga a few years back, when he referred to 'coloured actors' and was roundly criticised and told he should have said 'black' or 'actors of colour'. I was watching something on BBC4 the other night and a black lady referred to 'us coloured people'. So, the whole thing is rather confusing, and seems to change from week to week.

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