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[News] Universities on the brink?



clapham_gull

clapham_gull

Legacy Fan
Aug 20, 2003
25,324
Ernest said:
Supply and demand, too many universities chucking out useless degrees that have no relevance in getting the students a job.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately that's a very simplistic argument strictly linking higher education with employment.

Thatcher once visited Cambridge and responded "what a luxury" when a student told her they were studying ancient literature.

Maybe we should ban Sociology and History too.
 




clapham_gull

clapham_gull

Legacy Fan
Aug 20, 2003
25,324


G

Garry Nelson's teacher

Well-known member
May 11, 2015
5,257
Bloody Worthing!
Jim D said:
I have no inside knowledge but I often wonder about Northbrook University. It wasn't so long ago that it was Worthing CFE.
Click to expand...

I think at one point (in the 1990s) Northbrook had pretensions to become a pukka university college (never a university) but FE has even more problems than HE sector and the merger with Brighton City College might not have solved them.
We have over-capacity in the university sector and the demographic is not favourable. I'll go with those who are suggesting that Sussex is OK, Brighton is vulnerable but the likes of Solent ( a bit of a bottom-feeing fish) and Chichester (small and niche) might be in the firing line.
But quite rightly no-one had released the names as it can become self-fulfilling - especially at this time of year when UCAS forms are being completed and no-one wants to turn up next September to a uni with 'no longer trading' signs.
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
50,122
Faversham
I work up in London at one of the top six. I do some external examining. For 4 years I was an external at Sussex/Brighton for phase 1 medicine (first year preclinical). I can tell you that the med school is absolutely thriving, and they have done such a great job that their programme is being rolled out as a clone for the new medical school down the road from me in Canterbury.

Having a med school will have a major impact on the viability of an institution (unless run by morons). However, in my view the government has a system to measure (using 'REF' for research outputs and something else for teaching) to generate metrics to justify mass sackings and closures. I am surprised it didn't act after the last REF, but ironically, I suspect that neither labour nor conservative actually know what they want from the HE sector so they don’t do much with the data. Personally I would close maybe 30% of institutions since the quality is so poor.....

...in my role as external examiner I have examined about six institutions (each over a 4 year period). Two of them were/are shocking in the way they examine students, and my inference is that they employ low grade teachers (failed academics with little or no track record for research and gaining research funding). Now, these are 'respectable' middle ranking unis.....

If you drop down to the lower levels it is embarrassing. An ex PhD student of mine, the laziest student I ever supervised, walked into a lectureship (!!!) at one of the 'new' unis (former poly) and is one of the hardest workers there. She was made a senior lecturer after a couple of years. But she has not published a single research paper. And after she passed her PhD examination she confessed to me she has never....read.....a book.....of any sort......ever.

Let that sink in.

Another institution (middle ranking) has 'expanded' its activities to set up a 'campus' overseas. Lots of places have tried this. Unfortunately, as a middle ranking institute it has struggled to attract students for this campus. The solution (after 2 years) has been to.....waive.....the fees for a bit. Yes...it is losing money like a stuck pig loses blood. Now it is panicking over whether to stick or twist.

And we saw that CEO at Bath on a King's ransom....and don't start me on the initiatives and management and departments of 'enhanced student experience' etc. The sector is, IMV, a basket case but.....people don't realise this.....yet. Not sure they ever will to be fair as there is far too much scope for mediocre bullshitters (employees and graduates) stealing a career. Some of the clowns I encounter make certain notorious posters on NSC appear rational, honest and diligent.
 


M

Mellor 3 Ward 4

Well-known member
Jul 27, 2004
9,809
saaf of the water
Mellor 3 Ward 4 said:
Far, far too many kids pushed towards University when they really shouldn't have been, many to take Degrees which are proving fairly useless and of no interest to Employers.

Governments (of both colours) are to blame - Major for scrapping Polys and converting them into Unis, and the Blair Govt. for setting a 50% target of kids going to Uni.(In my day it was nearer to 5%)

The old Polys are (by and large) second class Universities, where kids are racking up huge debt to live away from home and take degrees when the majority of them should have either gone out to work, or learnt a trade/gone to a vocational institution.
Click to expand...

Seems there are others in agreement with me.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-46073769
 




M

Machiavelli

Well-known member
Oct 11, 2013
16,653
Fiveways
clapham_gull said:
Loads of myths surrounding the "debt". It's more of a tax than a debt.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/students/student-loans-tuition-fees-changes/
Click to expand...

It's actually more a composite between a tax and debt. The problem of characterising it as merely a tax is that you don't get charged interest on (other) tax(es).
I do agree with the point you're making that university shouldn't just be a means to a particular end (a job, better job, improving the GDP, etc), but should be an end in itself -- people should study at university because they want to get an education; treating it in that way can lead to numerous benefits beyond measure. As two examples, Einstein didn't discover the theory of relativity because of economic benefits, he was trying to solve a problem that was up until then intractable -- from relativity theory, a plethora of economic benefits (much of computer technology, for instance) has sprung. Second, those with degrees go on to live longer, healthier and happier lives.
 


beorhthelm

beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,310
Mellor 3 Ward 4 said:
Seems there are others in agreement with me.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-46073769
Click to expand...

pretty stark picture painted there. its not a great surprise in the end, if half the population get degrees, they wont all take up graduate jobs because less than half of jobs require that level. its a shame that the debate focuses on the fees and vice-chancellor pay, when the question should be on the purpose and expectation of degree. even the binary notion of degree/no-degree is absurd, we devalue vocational options and dont even discuss mid-way alternatives.
 


El Presidente

El Presidente

The ONLY Gay in Brighton
Helpful Moderator
Jul 5, 2003
39,709
Pattknull med Haksprut
Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Some of the clowns I encounter make certain notorious posters on NSC appear rational, honest and diligent.
Click to expand...

Is this the start of a 'Looney for VC' campaign?

I'd echo your comments, although one caveat, you don't have to do research to be a good lecturer. The four star publication cartel is governed in many (not all) subjects by cronyism, jealousy and an old boys network that is self serving and self fulfilling.
 




Tom Hark Preston Park

Tom Hark Preston Park

Will Post For Cash
Jul 6, 2003
70,192
clapham_gull said:
Unfortunately that's a very simplistic argument strictly linking higher education with employment.

Thatcher once visited Cambridge and responded "what a luxury" when a student told her they were studying ancient literature.

Maybe we should ban Sociology and History too.
Click to expand...

Sadly for graduates lumbered with all that student loan debt, six months relevent on-the-job experience will trump them in many areas of the job market. Essentially there's little difference from an employers point of view between taking on a graduate and taking someone straight out of the sixth form.
 


mejonaNO12 aka riskit

mejonaNO12 aka riskit

Well-known member
Dec 4, 2003
21,498
England
clapham_gull said:
Loads of myths surrounding the "debt". It's more of a tax than a debt.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/students/student-loans-tuition-fees-changes/
Click to expand...

Still, having read that I thank my lucky stars I finished uni just before those changes came in. I think I left uni with about 14k to repay.

Although it's not 'crippling' my finances, It will be lovely when it's paid off (I estimate Feb 2020). 1 - because I don't need to list it as an outgoing on any sort of mortgage application and 2 - My bonus won't get hit for £300+ every year :lolol:
 


T

TheJasperCo

Well-known member
Jan 20, 2012
4,596
Exeter
Harry Wilson's tackle said:
I work up in London at one of the top six. I do some external examining. For 4 years I was an external at Sussex/Brighton for phase 1 medicine (first year preclinical). I can tell you that the med school is absolutely thriving, and they have done such a great job that their programme is being rolled out as a clone for the new medical school down the road from me in Canterbury.

Having a med school will have a major impact on the viability of an institution (unless run by morons). However, in my view the government has a system to measure (using 'REF' for research outputs and something else for teaching) to generate metrics to justify mass sackings and closures. I am surprised it didn't act after the last REF, but ironically, I suspect that neither labour nor conservative actually know what they want from the HE sector so they don’t do much with the data. Personally I would close maybe 30% of institutions since the quality is so poor.....

...in my role as external examiner I have examined about six institutions (each over a 4 year period). Two of them were/are shocking in the way they examine students, and my inference is that they employ low grade teachers (failed academics with little or no track record for research and gaining research funding). Now, these are 'respectable' middle ranking unis.....

If you drop down to the lower levels it is embarrassing. An ex PhD student of mine, the laziest student I ever supervised, walked into a lectureship (!!!) at one of the 'new' unis (former poly) and is one of the hardest workers there. She was made a senior lecturer after a couple of years. But she has not published a single research paper. And after she passed her PhD examination she confessed to me she has never....read.....a book.....of any sort......ever.

Let that sink in.

Another institution (middle ranking) has 'expanded' its activities to set up a 'campus' overseas. Lots of places have tried this. Unfortunately, as a middle ranking institute it has struggled to attract students for this campus. The solution (after 2 years) has been to.....waive.....the fees for a bit. Yes...it is losing money like a stuck pig loses blood. Now it is panicking over whether to stick or twist.

And we saw that CEO at Bath on a King's ransom....and don't start me on the initiatives and management and departments of 'enhanced student experience' etc. The sector is, IMV, a basket case but.....people don't realise this.....yet. Not sure they ever will to be fair as there is far too much scope for mediocre bullshitters (employees and graduates) stealing a career. Some of the clowns I encounter make certain notorious posters on NSC appear rational, honest and diligent.
Click to expand...

Would honestly not be surprised if the university I work at, is included in what you're saying. Much of what you've written is very familiar to me.
 




Two Professors

Two Professors

Two Mad Professors
Jul 13, 2009
7,617
Multicultural Brum
clapham_gull said:
Unfortunately that's a very simplistic argument strictly linking higher education with employment.

Thatcher once visited Cambridge and responded "what a luxury" when a student told her they were studying ancient literature.

Maybe we should ban Sociology and History too.
Click to expand...

Thought socialists had already banned history.As opposed to history how we would have liked it.
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
50,122
Faversham
El Presidente said:
Is this the start of a 'Looney for VC' campaign?

I'd echo your comments, although one caveat, you don't have to do research to be a good lecturer. The four star publication cartel is governed in many (not all) subjects by cronyism, jealousy and an old boys network that is self serving and self fulfilling.
Click to expand...

Agree 100%. And in the US you have peer review cartels - people who support one another with favourable assessments and block 'outsiders' getting funding. But if you say anything you are at risk of being accused of 'sour grapes'. You're at Liverpool aren't you? I'll pm you....
 






Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
50,122
Faversham


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