[Politics] Gender pay gap

Goldstone1976 · Apr 5, 2018

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Unfortunately this isn't true. In my game a couple of clowns invented the concepts 'the reproducibility crisis' and 'p-hacking' to explain the failure of many research papers especially in medical research to 'pan out', with others making similar observations and new experimental medicines 'translating' to 'man'. Meanwhile the elephant in the room (actual data fabrication or studies so poorly designed they don't warrant statistical anlysis) goes ignored. The 'gender pay gap' has become a similar buzzword/jargon concept. Those who work in places where everyone seems to earn what they deserve according to their grade, and have the opportunity to progress on terms equal and unrelated to gender, and can prove it, are increasingly irritated with what is in effect a smoke screen of bullshit that hides very real cases of mistreatment and employment bias against women. Easy off the tongue this jargon may be. Useful it isn't. The upshot is that men determined to preserve their privilage will be able to easily do so by mocking the errors of fact.

Exactly so - to both main points you make.

Strip away the stuff about comparing apples to apples, which is a fair observation in some cases, and you’re still left with masses of egregious pay discrimination which is nothing to do with any ameliorating factors - it’s just plain wrong.

Separately, my partner works as a researcher in academia - some of the stories she tells me about colleagues being, at best, selective in what data they choose to analyse, and which epidemiological techniques they choose to use in order to get results they want are enough to make one cry.

Herr Tubthumper · Apr 5, 2018

[MENTION=3734]Giraffe[/MENTION] is looking a bit stupid.

Wilko · Apr 5, 2018

This is why debate in this sort of discussion always ends up being a binfest. Like (I hope) most others I believe in equal pay and gender equality but if you try to point out that the statistics are flawed in then you get call a misogynist. Like so many other debates about gender equality, as soon as this comment is thrown at you then you may as well stop the debate. It is so frustrating.

JC Footy Genius · Apr 5, 2018

edna krabappel said:
"That's a fact"? No it's not.

Anybody who dares to imagine we live in a truly equal world: read this load of misogynistic old shit and consider for a second that barely a single user has challenged it.

Well done, guys. Well done.

(apologies for the language, by the way. Sometimes you need a bit of emphasis to make a point)

Sexist

edna krabappel · Apr 5, 2018

Wilko said:
This is why debate in this sort of discussion always ends up being a binfest. Like (I hope) most others I believe in equal pay and gender equality but if you try to point out that the statistics are flawed in then you get call a misogynist. Like so many other debates about gender equality, as soon as this comment is thrown at you then you may as well stop the debate. It is so frustrating.

It doesn't need to be a binfest in the slightest: we're pretty much all in agreement that the way the stats are calculated is misleading. There's only one person on here who's shown himself to be an out and out misogynist.

Giraffe · Apr 5, 2018

Thunder Bolt said:
This. The poster has shown his contempt for women many times over on Nsc, and I was too cowardly to take him on.
Edna is braver and more articulate than me, so I'll leave him to her.

When? Show me these many times? Off the top of my head the only bread I can think of is wanting Gully’s Girls back and not being a fan of woman’s football. Any others?

Herr Tubthumper said:
[MENTION=3734]Giraffe[/MENTION] is looking a bit stupid.

Not stupid actually, relatively intelligent. But moreover just being honest and not afraid of left wing feminist despite the bile that they generally post.

I am not sexist. I could prove that hundreds of times over but I doubt anyone would listen. However I still maintain my general point is valid. Women are generally not as good at business as men. Lack of ambition, lack of logic, lack of control of emotion but mostly a general desire to have children and focus on them more than their job. And there is nothing wrong with that by the way.

Many will read this and agree but will be too scared to post because of the abuse I have received.

The gender pay gap problem is real as these figures are showing but bleating that’s it’s because of sexism is just frankly nonsense and actually damaging to women’s cause. What women need to do (and this isn’t all women I know) is up their game. A lot of women in business don’t have the ambition to go further, so won’t work as hard as a man in a similar position. Yes career breaks to have children are relevant but I know several women in high positions within companies who have had children and still kept going. They organised their life properly, get back to work and push on. If women choose to stay off with the children then that’s their choice and I respect that but you can’t have your cake and eat it. If you want to spend time with your children you will sacrifice opportunities at work which men may take. I did exactly that to spend more time with my children. My pay suffered as a result. Plenty of women progress despite this and a lot of these I talk to are fed up with all the moaning about raising children restricting your career. It’s just not the case. That is a choice. Spend time with your children or focus on your career. It is a choice a lot of men have made and they accept the sacrifice to their career as well.

StonehamPark · Apr 5, 2018

Giraffe said:
Not stupid actually, relatively intelligent.

Err...

Giraffe said:
The sad reality is that women in business are generally not as good as men. That’s a fact.

Giraffe said:
Funnily enough I have generally recruited far more women than men. Probably 80:20 split.

El Presidente · Apr 5, 2018

Giraffe said:
When? Show me these many times? Off the top of my head the only bread I can think of is wanting Gully’s Girls back and not being a fan of woman’s football. Any others?

Not stupid actually, relatively intelligent. But moreover just being honest and not afraid of left wing feminist despite the bile that they generally post.

I am not sexist. I could prove that hundreds of times over but I doubt anyone would listen. However I still maintain my general point is valid. Women are generally not as good at business as men. Lack of ambition, lack of logic, lack of control of emotion but mostly a general desire to have children and focus on them more than their job. And there is nothing wrong with that by the way.

Many will read this and agree but will be too scared to post because of the abuse I have received.

The gender pay gap problem is real as these figures are showing but bleating that’s it’s because of sexism is just frankly nonsense and actually damaging to women’s cause. What women need to do (and this isn’t all women I know) is up their game. A lot of women in business don’t have the ambition to go further, so won’t work as hard as a man in a similar position. Yes career breaks to have children are relevant but I know several women in high positions within companies who have had children and still kept going. They organised their life properly, get back to work and push on. If women choose to stay off with the children then that’s their choice and I respect that but you can’t have your cake and eat it. If you want to spend time with your children you will sacrifice opportunities at work which men may take. I did exactly that to spend more time with my children. My pay suffered as a result. Plenty of women progress despite this and a lot of these I talk to are fed up with all the moaning about raising children restricting your career. It’s just not the case. That is a choice. Spend time with your children or focus on your career. It is a choice a lot of men have made and they accept the sacrifice to their career as well.

I've read it and fundamentally disagree. It's utter horseshit and belongs in the dark ages.

Some women are crap bosses, some are great, it's the same for men. The best person I have ever worked for is a woman. Why is she good? She listens, she makes decisions, she leaves her ego at the door, she's given me praise when I've deserved it and a bollocking when I've not pulled my weight, and for that I've given her total respect all the time.

She's done that because she's skilled, intelligent, and experienced, not because of her gender.

What next? Gay men should be paid less as they are more interested in scattering cushions than making hard nosed business decisions?

Giraffe · Apr 5, 2018

StonehamPark said:
Err...

Just because I personally am not sexist and recruit fairly does not mean that I don’t observe the problem.

Anyway I’m talking about their progression to the top jobs not working in business lower down.

The only reason there is a gender pay gap is because not enough women progress to higher roles. My argument is that this has nothing to do with sexism. It’s down to choice from women to spend time bringing up their children, lack of drive, lack of ambition.

Giraffe · Apr 5, 2018

El Presidente said:
I've read it and fundamentally disagree. It's utter horseshit and belongs in the dark ages.

Some women are crap bosses, some are great, it's the same for men. The best person I have ever worked for is a woman. Why is she good? She listens, she makes decisions, she leaves her ego at the door, she's given me praise when I've deserved it and a bollocking when I've not pulled my weight, and for that I've given her total respect all the time.

She's done that because she's skilled, intelligent, and experienced, not because of her gender.

What next? Gay men should be paid less as they are more interested in scattering cushions than making hard nosed business decisions?

If a woman does the job well then of course she should be paid the same as a man.

However the gender pay gap is not measured like this. It is highlighting the lack of progression to higher roles. Why has that happened then? Is it because bosses are sexist? I don’t believe that’s the case.

Acker79 · Apr 5, 2018

Sexism, much like racism and other isms, can exist as unconscious bias, as an institutional bias. It isn't always as overt as Giraffe thinking women are no good at business 'cause they want the babies.

Just because a business person doesn't spout nonsense about a women's place, or treats the women in their life and work with respect as individual people, it doesn't mean they don't fall into the same trap as those who look at a CV see a woman's name and consciously decide to throw it in the rejected pile. That 'gut feeling that she isn't right'; treating her ambition as aggressive and unsettling, going with the man only had a little bit of ambition; offering promotions or projects that build CVs to men because that woman just got married so is probably thinking of starting a family and not about her long term employment, leading to a justification for imbalance of pay ("he did all these projects/training, she didn't!")

edna krabappel · Apr 5, 2018

Giraffe said:
Just because I personally am not sexist

Yes, yes you are.

sexist
adjective
1.
relating to or characterized by prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.
"his attitude to women is patronizing and sexist"
noun
noun: sexist; plural noun: sexists
1.
a person with sexist views.
"I want to make it clear that I'm certainly not a sexist"

Giraffe · Apr 5, 2018

Acker79 said:
Sexism, much like racism and other isms, can exist as unconscious bias, as an institutional bias. It isn't always as overt as Giraffe thinking women are no good at business 'cause they want the babies.

Just because a business person doesn't spout nonsense about a women's place, or treats the women in their life and work with respect as individual people, it doesn't mean they don't fall into the same trap as those who look at a CV see a woman's name and consciously decide to throw it in the rejected pile. That 'gut feeling that she isn't right'; treating her ambition as aggressive and unsettling, going with the man only had a little bit of ambition; offering promotions or projects that build CVs to men because that woman just got married so is probably thinking of starting a family and not about her long term employment, leading to a justification for imbalance of pay ("he did all these projects/training, she didn't!")

The irony is I argue against anyone who won’t recruit a woman of a certain age who have just got married. I have regularly recruited them and have no problem with it at all. It’s irrelevant. If they are right for the job they are right for the job. I have also accepted every flexible working request ever to come to me to allow them to come back when they want and work whatever hours suit them. I actually like this flexibility. I am not anti-women doing this, I think it is great. But clearly if more women want to do this than men it is going to be harder for as many of them to progress as men. If you work part time for 16 years it is clearly going to be harder to progress. You don’t get to the top by working less hours. That’s just the harsh reality of life.

edna krabappel · Apr 5, 2018

Giraffe said:
It is highlighting the lack of progression to higher roles. Why has that happened then? Is it because bosses are sexist? I don’t believe that’s the case.

You've already demonstrated repeatedly that it perfectly well is the case in some arenas. If there are other people in business with the same views as you, then that probably answers your question as to why women aren't progressing to those roles as quickly as might be expected.

Herr Tubthumper · Apr 5, 2018

Giraffe said:
When? Show me these many times? Off the top of my head the only bread I can think of is wanting Gully’s Girls back and not being a fan of woman’s football. Any others?

Not stupid actually, relatively intelligent. But moreover just being honest and not afraid of left wing feminist despite the bile that they generally post.

I am not sexist. I could prove that hundreds of times over but I doubt anyone would listen. However I still maintain my general point is valid. Women are generally not as good at business as men. Lack of ambition, lack of logic, lack of control of emotion but mostly a general desire to have children and focus on them more than their job. And there is nothing wrong with that by the way.

Many will read this and agree but will be too scared to post because of the abuse I have received.

The gender pay gap problem is real as these figures are showing but bleating that’s it’s because of sexism is just frankly nonsense and actually damaging to women’s cause. What women need to do (and this isn’t all women I know) is up their game. A lot of women in business don’t have the ambition to go further, so won’t work as hard as a man in a similar position. Yes career breaks to have children are relevant but I know several women in high positions within companies who have had children and still kept going. They organised their life properly, get back to work and push on. If women choose to stay off with the children then that’s their choice and I respect that but you can’t have your cake and eat it. If you want to spend time with your children you will sacrifice opportunities at work which men may take. I did exactly that to spend more time with my children. My pay suffered as a result. Plenty of women progress despite this and a lot of these I talk to are fed up with all the moaning about raising children restricting your career. It’s just not the case. That is a choice. Spend time with your children or focus on your career. It is a choice a lot of men have made and they accept the sacrifice to their career as well.

I disagree. And I think you have entrenched sexist views. Also, you never answered my questions. Why is this situation seemingly specific to you? It’s not the case where I work; I work with many females at all levels, highly educated, driven and many have high positions. In fact the CEO of my current client is female.

Herr Tubthumper · Apr 5, 2018

Giraffe said:
It is highlighting the lack of progression to higher roles. Why has that happened then? Is it because bosses are sexist? I don’t believe that’s the case.

Reading your posts I believe it’s very much the case.

topbanana36 · Apr 5, 2018

I would upload Daniel Bostock’s lastest parody but there are too many sensitive petals. Gender pay pffff!

Acker79 · Apr 5, 2018

Giraffe said:
The irony is I argue against anyone who won’t recruit a woman of a certain age who have just got married. I have regularly recruited them and have no problem with it at all. It’s irrelevant. If they are right for the job they are right for the job. I have also accepted every flexible working request ever to come to me to allow them to come back when they want and work whatever hours suit them. I actually like this flexibility. I am not anti-women doing this, I think it is great. But clearly if more women want to do this than men it is going to be harder for as many of them to progress as men. If you work part time for 16 years it is clearly going to be harder to progress. You don’t get to the top by working less hours. That’s just the harsh reality of life.

Is that American irony?

Giraffe · Apr 5, 2018

Herr Tubthumper said:
I disagree. And I think you have entrenched sexist views. Also, you never answered my questions. Why is this situation seemingly specific to you? It’s not the case where I work; I work with many females at all levels, highly educated, driven and many have high positions. In fact the CEO of my current client is female.

Well you are entitled to your view and I respect your opinion.

Our experiences are different. Maybe over the next ten years we will see it change. I’m certainly open to having my view changed.

I’d like to see more women commit to their career in the same way as men that progress to higher positions. This will make a massive change for the good of women and men and bring much more balance to home and work life.

Let’s agree that we would both like to see that even if we start from different positions?

Wilko · Apr 5, 2018

edna krabappel said:
It doesn't need to be a binfest in the slightest: we're pretty much all in agreement that the way the stats are calculated is misleading. There's only one person on here who's shown himself to be an out and out misogynist.

Well, that is true. Sorry, I was not referring simply to this thread, been discussing the gender pay gap on twitter today and been told on more than one occasion I am a misogynist or that I am mansplaining which really does not aid the debate in my opinion.

Getting back on track, I am hoping this does open up the debate as to why jobs such as social workers, nursing, counselling and so on are such poorly paid jobs (not just because they are female dominated positions) in terms of their importance to society.

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