Cyclist on illegal bike who killed a pedestrian on manslaughter charged 'blamed victim'

JCL - the new kid in town · Aug 18, 2017

Stat Brother said:
Not in the conventional handlebar sense, no.

To slow down he would have had to modify his pedaling
To emergency stop he would have needed to 'pedal backwards'.

But as said a few times, the rear wheel is no use for stopping, as all locking that would do is slow you down, assuming the rider could control the skid.

Indeed i just looked up (googled) bicycle braking and one person did a test at 10mph and showed that using a front brake only increases stopping distance about 10% (compared to using both) whereas using just the back brake increased stopping distance by over 120% so well over twice the distance.

The Fifth Column · Aug 18, 2017

midnight_rendezvous said:
Well that's just not true. Like motorists, it is the miniroty of cyclists who play fast and loose with the rules of the road. Sweeping generalisations such as this only succeed in turning debates into an 'us vs. them' mindset, which doesn't help anyone.

It is true. You rarely see a motorist just decide they can't be arsed to wait for the red light to change and just drive through it when its been red for some time yet I see several cyclists a day do this even when traffic which has the right of way is still driving through. You can't claim it to be a minority of cyclists when on a typical journey into the city I might see 20-30 cyclists and a good proportion of them ignoring road traffic laws. I've not said i don't like cyclists or that there is an 'us' and 'them' scenario and as it happens I'm a motorist, motorcyclist and cyclist, I'm saying the fact is that a lot of cyclists simply use the road as an extension of the pavement and vice versa and completely ignore any rules of the road or highway code. As a cyclist I have frequently been stopped at red lights only for some dickhead to cycle past me and run the red light, I can't say a motorist has ever done that to me.

midnight_rendezvous · Aug 18, 2017

The Fifth Column said:
It is true. You rarely see a motorist just decide they can't be arsed to wait for the red light to change and just drive through it when its been red for some time yet I see several cyclists a day do this even when traffic which has the right of way is still driving through. You can't claim it to be a minority of cyclists when on a typical journey into the city I might see 20-30 cyclists and a good proportion of them ignoring road traffic laws. I've not said i don't like cyclists or that there is an 'us' and 'them' scenario and as it happens I'm a motorist, motorcyclist and cyclist, I'm saying the fact is that a lot of cyclists simply use the road as an extension of the pavement and vice versa and completely ignore any rules of the road or highway code. As a cyclist I have frequently been stopped at red lights only for some dickhead to cycle past me and run the red light, I can't say a motorist has ever done that to me.

You can't claim that 'most cyclists' see themselves above the rules of the road based on a small number that you see when you commute. All that means is they, as individuals, see themselves above the rules of the road not cyclists as a collective. Having been cycling for almost 30 years, being a member of cycling clubs, a commuter to and from Birmingham, motorist and general pedestrian, I have seen ONE cyclist jump a red light. One. Of course, neither your experience or mine, is conclusive evidence either way.

Spiros · Aug 18, 2017

The Fifth Column said:
It is true. You rarely see a motorist just decide they can't be arsed to wait for the red light to change and just drive through it when its been red for some time yet I see several cyclists a day do this even when traffic which has the right of way is still driving through. As a cyclist I have frequently been stopped at red lights only for some dickhead to cycle past me and run the red light, I can't say a motorist has ever done that to me.

You obviously don't spend any time in Guildford where it's pretty normal for motorists to carry on through just about every red light 2-3 seconds after its turned red. Every time.

I was involved in an accident in Worthing where a car jumped a red light and drove into me. The motorist had actually passed two cyclists who stopped at the same red light yet claimed the light was amber. They lost.

I am both a motorist and a cyclist and see absolute twats using both cars and bikes, though the majority of both obey the law. Generalisations like 'all cyclists jump red lights' or 'all motorists hate all cyclists' are not true and don't help anyone

GT49er · Aug 18, 2017

midnight_rendezvous said:
You can't claim that 'most cyclists' see themselves above the rules of the road based on a small number that you see when you commute. All that means is they, as individuals, see themselves above the rules of the road not cyclists as a collective. Having been cycling for almost 30 years, being a member of cycling clubs, a commuter to and from Birmingham, motorist and general pedestrian, I have seen ONE cyclist jump a red light. One. Of course, neither your experience or mine, is conclusive evidence either way.

I agree that most cyclists don't see themselves as above the laws of the road. The vast majority round here don't ride on the road, they ride on the pavement, so presumably they believe the laws of the road only apply on the road, not on the footpath - so they're not putting themselves above the rules of the road - they just don't believe they apply to them!

Stat Brother · Aug 18, 2017

OK mods this thread is done now till the verdict.

Can it go away until then as we've now clearly entered into the 'all cyclists/drivers' stage of the 'discussion'.

Stat Brother · Aug 18, 2017

In the meantime:-

Hove man charged over cycle bottom-slapping sex attacks

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-40977965

drew · Aug 18, 2017

beorhthelm said:
that may well be the case, however his own testimony is that he had time to shout at her twice, yet not enough time to slow or stop. he's in court because of his actions and suspected negligence, not those of the victim.

He says he did slow but obviously not enough to avoid the collision.

drew · Aug 18, 2017

Bra said:
Not sure I get this. If I am involved in an accident in my car which is not road legal I would expect to face prosecution whether the initial fault is mine or not. Why should this cyclist be any different.

You would be prosecuted in respect of driving an illegal car just as if you had been if the Police had stopped you but if someone stepped out in front of you and there was absolutely nothing you could do and the reason the car was unroadworthy had no bearing then that shouldn't affect the apportionment of blame. We wouldn't be talking about this if she had just fallen over and ended up breaking a leg. However, they clashed heads in the collision and who knows whether she subsequently suffered further damage when her head hit the ground.

Garage_Doors · Aug 18, 2017

JCL - the new kid in town said:
Apparently crash investigator Edward Small said she had stepped into the road 3.8 seconds before the crash. (calculated from CCTV)

3.8 seconds at 18mph is ~30 metres. Why did he crash into her?

3.8 seconds thats a hell of a stopping distance.a standard can can got from 35 to 0 in less than that time.
Not sure what the bike distances are but with brakes easily from 18 to 0 in that time.

Shropshire Seagull · Aug 18, 2017

It's the total absence of any remorse and the "it was all her fault" attitude that I find so distasteful.

I think it's quite clear - if his bike had brakes fitted, as required by the law, the collision would have been avoidable ....

Guilty !!

Triggaaar · Aug 18, 2017

JCL - the new kid in town said:
Apparently crash investigator Edward Small said she had stepped into the road 3.8 seconds before the crash. (calculated from CCTV)

3.8 seconds at 18mph is ~30 metres. Why did he crash into her?

And even further if he was going slower. Blimey. The suggestion that she might have died had he been cycling a normal road legal bike, and used his brakes, seems unlikely to me.

Triggaaar · Aug 18, 2017

JCL - the new kid in town said:
Indeed i just looked up (googled) bicycle braking and one person did a test at 10mph and showed that using a front brake only increases stopping distance about 10% (compared to using both) whereas using just the back brake increased stopping distance by over 120% so well over twice the distance.

And that's with a back break, which he didn't have! I think for most people a back brake is easier to control than braking with a fixie. Not sure if that's right [MENTION=435]Stat Brother[/MENTION]?

DTES · Aug 18, 2017

Triggaaar said:
And even further if he was going slower. Blimey.

Surely if he was going slower, he would have gone less far in the same time??

DTES · Aug 18, 2017

Motogull said:
Maybe the time has come to follow Russia's lead and have all road users travel with dash cams.

Including cyclists? I do have one on mine, but that's a hell of an ask for all cyclists... it's hard enough remembering to charge the bloody thing every day, let alone forcing everyone else to buy one

Stat Brother · Aug 18, 2017

Triggaaar said:
And that's with a back break, which he didn't have! I think for most people a back brake is easier to control than braking with a fixie. Not sure if that's right [MENTION=435]Stat Brother[/MENTION]?

Deffo, although this guy was no fixie novice, if I remember he'd had it a while and done the miles.
Even then though it's still not an instant emergency brake (those are the 2 key words here).
Obviously he can't brake at 6 o'clock, optimum braking is 2:45.

Then to throw another spanner in the works, the bikes are made for riding, not starting and stopping.
That can be a pain in the arse even for those of us with cleated shoes, and might encourage riders to take liberties with things like traffic lights

Even more so for a fixie with no gears, so much more effort is needed to get going again up to a cruising speed.

My gut reaction to the time and distances is they all feels a bit long to me, but the principle is correct.

In my time I've done my fair share of mini endos (ha there's a word I haven't used since my BMX days).
Usually coming into traffic for the countryside, misjudging my speed, not judging the traffic flow.
It only takes a moment to miss the break lights and boom I'm on top of a rear bumper.

I guarantee when in those situations if I'd relied the rear brake I bump/hit the car every time.
As it is, habit means I (we) all pull on the front brake then assess as to how hard and for how long, if the rear wheel lifts, so be it, it sure as hell doesn't happen again for a while.

Triggaaar · Aug 18, 2017

DTES said:
Surely if he was going slower, he would have gone less far in the same time??

Good lord, you're quite right, I had a senior moment (quite different to being stupid you understand).

drew · Aug 18, 2017

Motogull said:
Hopefully there is some cctv footage to help the court. Its a horrible story, but sadly inevitable. What I post next is pure speculation.

Without proper brakes he was going to hit someone sooner or later and by being glued to her smart phone she was going to come a cropper to some degree sooner or later too.

We are taught when at primary school never to step into a road unless we have checked.

Maybe the time has come to follow Russia's lead and have all road users travel with dash cams. Maybe even take it further and have movement detectors on smartphones so that it asks a user to confirm they are neither walking nor driving while using. That way, if there is an accident, the phone history will show they took the conscious decision to say 'no'.

What makes you think Russia requires everyone to have dash cams? Perhaps you been watching too much car crash tv on You Tube! That said, it isn't a bad idea.

The Fifth Column · Aug 18, 2017

Spiros said:
You obviously don't spend any time in Guildford where it's pretty normal for motorists to carry on through just about every red light 2-3 seconds after its turned red. Every time.

I was involved in an accident in Worthing where a car jumped a red light and drove into me. The motorist had actually passed two cyclists who stopped at the same red light yet claimed the light was amber. They lost.

I am both a motorist and a cyclist and see absolute twats using both cars and bikes, though the majority of both obey the law. Generalisations like 'all cyclists jump red lights' or 'all motorists hate all cyclists' are not true and don't help anyone

I haven't claimed 'all cyclists jump red lights', I've stated I've seen many do it on a daily basis and that I see more cyclists doing it than motorists. That's my experience I'm sorry if it doesn't fit with your opinion.

Motogull · Aug 18, 2017

[MENTION=256]DTES[/MENTION] asda do one for £30. Won't be great but would be helpful in a dispute.
[MENTION=5208]drew[/MENTION] misinformation. Sorry for confusion.

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