General Election 2017

happypig · Jun 3, 2017

Maybe the best deal is not leaving at all, saying to the electorate "We know many of you voted to leave but, after seeing the overall costs/benefits of leaving, it would be economic suicide so, as we are a parliamentary democracy, we are asking parliament to vote to abandon the Brexit process"

Buzzer · Jun 3, 2017

studio150 said:
An interesting position. I support your view that Trump may isolate America and withdraw its support from Europe and NATO. However I don't think Russia would use Nuclear weapons. I would see it very much a conventional weapons invasion on a country by country basis.
You may recall recall the issue being used in Yes Prime Minister many years ago, it is still relevant today

I remember that episode very clearly. Brilliantly observed comedy.

I don't think it's a question of whether Putin will use nuclear weapons. It's more whether he'll try his luck in a Europe without the US as a close friend. I always try to keep an eye out for news of ethnic unrest in the Baltic States. There's a lot of ethnic Russians still there and things could get nasty.

Russia was very clever when the USSR split by offering dual Russian nationality to all ethnic Russians in the other Soviet countries and there's lots of them. It gives Russia a legitimate (in their eyes) excuse to meddle in the affairs of those countries because written in the Russian constitution is something about having the right to protect its citizens by any means. It's why there's overt Russian support for separatists in Eastern Ukraine. Baltic independence is still new and blood was spilt as late as the 90s achieving it, there are still land disputes and there's a large Russian diaspora in the Baltic. There's even a Russian enclave, Kalliningrad, surrounded completely by Lithuania and Poland.

Every so often we hear of British, Swedish, Norwegian or Finnish armed forces being dispatched because Russian ships, subs and planes going in places they've no right to be. These aren't accidents. Right now we need to be strong and need to be seen to be strong.

GT49er · Jun 3, 2017

happypig said:
Maybe the best deal is not leaving at all, saying to the electorate "We know many of you voted to leave but, after seeing the overall costs/benefits of leaving, it would be economic suicide so, as we are a parliamentary democracy, we are asking parliament to vote to abandon the Brexit process"

You are Tim Farron and I claim my five pounds! :facepalm:

easynow · Jun 3, 2017

Buzzer said:
I remember that episode very clearly. Brilliantly observed comedy.

I don't think it's a question of whether Putin will use nuclear weapons. It's more whether he'll try his luck in a Europe without the US as a close friend. I always try to keep an eye out for news of ethnic unrest in the Baltic States. There's a lot of ethnic Russians still there and things could get nasty.

Russia was very clever when the USSR split by offering dual Russian nationality to all ethnic Russians in the other Soviet countries and there's lots of them. It gives Russia a legitimate (in their eyes) excuse to meddle in the affairs of those countries because written in the Russian constitution is something about having the right to protect its citizens by any means. It's why there's overt Russian support for separatists in Eastern Ukraine. Baltic independence is still new and blood spilled as late as the 90s achieving it, there are still land disputes and there's a large Russian diaspora in the Baltic. There's even a Russian enclave, Kalliningrad, surrounded completely by Lithuania and Poland.

Every so often we hear of British, Swedish, Norwegian or Finnish armed forces being dispatched because Russian ships, subs and planes going in places they've no right to be. These aren't accidents. Right now we need to be strong and need to be seen to be strong.

No, the UK no longer needs a nuclear deterrent - nor France. We don't even need a military. If Russia invades Europe, we should all dance around stonehenge and hope for the best. :lolol:

happypig · Jun 3, 2017

GT49er said:
You are Tim Farron and I claim my five pounds!

Do you accept Euros ?

Technohead · Jun 3, 2017

Tubby-McFat-Fuc said:
Exactly. A bit like Brexit. You need to be prepared to say you will use them.

It's a deterrent FFS. How can you deter people with them, if you won't confirm that you are prepared to use them.

Actually that's not strictly true. The MAD doctrine which our nuclear deterrence is based on is in the principle that you have enough nuclear weaponry to destroy the other side but that no side will dare launch a first strike because the other side would launch on warning. Therefore, although I'm sure he didn't intend it as such, Corbyns statements tonight on a no first strike intention are actually in keeping with the very principles of nuclear deterrence.

Technohead · Jun 3, 2017

Javeaseagull said:
Why is Corbyn continually asked if he would press the button? No British Prime Minister has ever faced this dilemma and none will. The control of Polaris is completely down to the Americans.
We all know the answer don’t we.

Agree with you 100% on the "would you press the button" point. But just for clarity, under the terms of the UK Trident programme the US has no control or veto ..... the UK may launch independently, and the final decision rests with the prime minister.

KVLT · Jun 3, 2017

Technohead said:
Agree with you 100% on the "would you press the button" point. But just for clarity, under the terms of the UK Trident programme the US has no control or veto ..... the UK may launch independently, and the final decision rests with the prime minister.

..... If you can find her. :flypig:

portslade seagull · Jun 3, 2017

TSB said:
Complete and utter crap.

Crap for those who lose out under the lefties plans. Basically anybody who dares to work hard for their money and struggle to get a mortgage and roof over their head rather than demand it

Bulldog · Jun 3, 2017

Has anyone asked TM if her deeply held religious views would allow her to push the button, considering she could face an eternity burning in the fires of hell for killing millions of innocent civilians. - thou shalt not kill and all that.

I doubt if she would be any more likely to push the button than JC and the Russians will know that from the in depth profiling they do on all potential leaders.

happypig · Jun 3, 2017

portslade seagull said:
Crap for those who lose out under the lefties plans. Basically anybody who dares to work hard for their money and struggle to get a mortgage and roof over their head rather than demand it

I dare to work hard, I have done for all but two weeks since 1979. I've struggled to put a roof over my head but have always done so. Why is it always assumed that "lefties" don't ? FWIW, I'd be quite happy to pay another 1 or 2 pence on income tax to properly fund public services and the NHS.

portslade seagull · Jun 3, 2017

happypig said:
I dare to work hard, I have done for all but two weeks since 1979. I've struggled to put a roof over my head but have always done so. Why is it always assumed that "lefties" don't ? FWIW, I'd be quite happy to pay another 1 or 2 pence on income tax to properly fund public services and the NHS.

As would I as long as that is where it ended up. Sadly you like me will end up
paying much more than that

Triggaaar · Jun 3, 2017

TSB said:
When did he say that?

When he was canvasing to become leader of the Labour party. I think his point is that if we're being wiped out by nukes, what's the point in wiping out the enemy - we'd be dead anyway and that would be the end of humans. While I don't mind that, the point is that even if that's your plan, you don't tell people it is, because that ends your deterrent (that you continue to pay for).

Triggaaar · Jun 3, 2017

happypig said:
Rumoured that Thatcher considered it
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p017fjcj)

Well it's easy using them against an enemy that can't fight back

I think it's unlikely she'd have used them though.

Steve Foster · Jun 3, 2017

portslade seagull said:
As would I as long as that is where it ended up. Sadly you like me will end up
paying much more than that

Herr Tubthumper · Jun 3, 2017

Tubby-McFat-Fuc said:
You could always get the bus if you walk away.

And the bus driver will acknowledge your lack of options, rub his hands, and sell you a ticket on his terms. Which is what any potential post-Brexit trading partner will do if they know you're on WTO tariffs. Everyone knows May needs a deal so stop the pretense of walking away and start acting more like a states person and less like a bratty child.

Buzzer · Jun 3, 2017

I've yet to see a Brexit analogy that didn't get stretched so far from its shaky base by ever more ludicrous clauses that it just becomes silly. This latest one is a belter. Apparently bus drivers run an Uber style pricing depending on how much you look like you need to take their bus. I half expect this story to end with the revelation that the bus driver is really a gingerbread man and he drives the bus over a cliff made of Nazi jelly.

soistes · Jun 3, 2017

9 Tory men of a certain age (out of 120 audience) grilled Corbyn on IRA/Brexit/Trident/overseas aid.
= 29% of total Question Time questions.
Luckily, I suspect that these kinds of people are not the future.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Buzzer · Jun 3, 2017

soistes said:
9 Tory men of a certain age (out of 120 audience) grilled Corbyn on IRA/Brexit/Trident/overseas aid.
= 29% of total Question Time questions.
Luckily, I suspect that these kinds of people are not the future.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What a brave new world on offer. Questions about defence, terrorism, the EU are no longer deemed worthy of asking a prospective PM and looking forward to a future where 45% of the population risk gradually losing their right as they get older to express views if those views aren't the right views.

I'm guessing that you know sod all about these blokes except from the obvious fact that they are bothered enough about democracy that they went to the trouble of applying to be in that audience and ask a a question of the people who want to run our country. Can I ask - did you apply to be in the audience to ask a searching question of Theresa May or did you sod all and then get angry about it?

If it's the latter then I've got bad news for you. The future belongs to the people who get involved. Like these men.

Ernest · Jun 3, 2017

Bulldog said:
Has anyone asked TM if her deeply held religious views would allow her to push the button, considering she could face an eternity burning in the fires of hell for killing millions of innocent civilians. - thou shalt not kill and all that.

I doubt if she would be any more likely to push the button than JC and the Russians will know that from the in depth profiling they do on all potential leaders.

By her performance so far this campaign at any sign of trouble she would go into hiding

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General Election 2017

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