Cameron - what a complete tool

Scoffers · Oct 23, 2014

What we are seeing with Cameron seems to me to be a knee-jerk reaction to the threat of UKIP. If you assume that the LibDems will die a death at the polls next year, he'll need either a deal with a UKIP (assuming UKIP eat up a lot of Tory, LibDem, Labour and Green votes), or he'll need to convince the general public that he's the man to sort out 'Europe' and thus diminishing the threat of UKIP and/or disaffected Tories.

He knows that he's not gonna convince Brussels to water down their 'open door' immigration policy, he's just trying to appear tough on Europe to win votes, and then not deliver once he's elected back in.

It's called being a politician, and it sucks

Leighgull · Oct 23, 2014

Alex said:
Someone must have missed this bit then in the 1957 Treaty of Rome?

"1. The free movement of workers shall be ensured within the Community not later than at the date of the expiry of the transitional period.

2. This shall involve the abolition of any discrimination based on nationality between workers of the Member States, as regards employment, remuneration and other working conditions."

And how many countries were in the Common market in 1957?

In 1951, six countries founded the European Coal and Steel Community, and later, in 1957, the European Economic Community and the European Atomic Energy Community:

Belgium
Germany
France
Italy
Luxembourg
the Netherlands

A further 22 countries have since joined the EU, including a historic expansion in 2004.

Alex Alex Dawson oo! oo! · Oct 23, 2014

Westdene Seagull said:
And of course the interview in which Ted Heath admitted that the aim of political and fiscal union was always the plan but in order to persuade the British public to join the Common Market it was necessary to hide it as much as possible.

Hidden? I did this stuff at school, which was before the UK joined.

Westdene Seagull · Oct 23, 2014

Alex said:
Hidden? I did this stuff at school, which was before the UK joined.

I'm only quoting a BBC interview I saw a few years ago. I'm too young to remember the campaigning for either referendum - was this aim highlighted at all ?

spring hall convert · Oct 23, 2014

This Government is especially lazy, complacent and full of its own importance.

Which makes the failure of the opposition to grab the agenda, pretty much unforgivable. We are being served up an utter show of s*** at the moment. It's threatening to make a joke of democracy in this country.

London Irish · Oct 23, 2014

BLOCK F said:
Agreed.
Milliband for PM anyone?

Yes, why not? Best by a long way of a bad lot.

Was very impressed that he stopped us going to war with Syria last year, so he is not some kind of servile Blair clone. If you recall a year ago, that would have been us going to war on the same side as Isis, that's the level of Cameron's judgement

spring hall convert · Oct 23, 2014

Brovion said:
Cameron, like the rest of the British political elite, is pro-Europe. However Simster's point is valid inasmuch as he's making himself look a **** by banging on about renegotiating items that he knows he hasn't a hope of delivering. As to Simster's other point that it's 'not a major issue', hmmm, I'm not so sure. Are they panicking about (and pandering to) UKIP unnecessarily? Time will tell.

The real ****'s are anyone who believes him.

The only way we can get what we want in Europe is if we get the French and German's onside. Do we think DC is the man to do that?

Alex Alex Dawson oo! oo! · Oct 23, 2014

Leighgull said:
And how many countries were in the Common market in 1957?

In 1951, six countries founded the European Coal and Steel Community, and later, in 1957, the European Economic Community and the European Atomic Energy Community:

Belgium
Germany
France
Italy
Luxembourg
the Netherlands

A further 22 countries have since joined the EU, including a historic expansion in 2004.

What's your point, if there is one?

Leighgull · Oct 23, 2014

Alex said:
What's your point, if there is one?

My point is that free movement and similar pay conditions between Belgium, Holland, Luxembourg, France and Germany is an easy promise to keep as they are Northern European industrialised economies. Promising the same ease of movement between Romania and the UK is, clearly, going to mean incredible opportunities and pay differentials to one country and a massive burden on the other.

Shall I make it more clear for you, or do you get it now?

jgmcdee · Oct 23, 2014

Leighgull said:
My point is that free movement and similar pay conditions between Belgium, Holland, Luxembourg, France and Germany is an easy promise to keep as they are Northern European industrialised economies. Promising the same ease of movement between Romania and the UK is, clearly, going to mean incredible opportunities and pay differentials to one country and a massive burden on the other.

And yet the UK signed up, and didn't stop Romania from signing up. So you can hardly say that they were surprised when something they agreed to allow happen did happen.

(Not sure where 'similar pay conditions' came from, first time I've seen that in this thread).

spring hall convert · Oct 23, 2014

somerset said:
......do you mean the figures that clearly show that the deficit has reduced by a third over the last 5 years?

So we got 33% of the promised "benefit" for 100% of the cuts promised. Loving these Tory maths.

Raleigh Chopper · Oct 23, 2014

somerset said:
......do you mean the figures that clearly show that the deficit has reduced by a third over the last 5 years?

Convert got there before me but to answer.
No. The figures that show that only 1 third of the promised 100% has been paid off and we are borrowing more than this time last year when borrowing was promised to be kept under control.
His pre election line was why should our children and grand children have to pay back the deficit.
Cameron has a nasty habit of using children in his promises even his own to tug at the heart strings.
So you see, lie after lie or promises that he wont or cannot keep.

Brovion · Oct 23, 2014

Alex said:
Hidden? I did this stuff at school, which was before the UK joined.

Westdene Seagull said:
I'm only quoting a BBC interview I saw a few years ago. I'm too young to remember the campaigning for either referendum - was this aim highlighted at all ?

I campaigned with a group called Y.E.S. (Young European Socialists. I've swapped sides now!). Most of the debate, to my young ears, seemed to be us telling the older lefties that, no, it wasn't a capitalist club (ha! Wrong!), whilst laughing at the right wingers harrumph about the end of Empire and bemoaning the fact that we'd have to weaken our trading ties with the Commonwealth in favour of deals with all these krauts, frogs, wops, dagos, etc.

'Ever closer union' was just one of those things no one really thought about in the hurly-burly of the here and now (for 1975) arguments. A bit like us as Brighton fans talking about how we should approach the Europa League, it was just a concept.

jgmcdee · Oct 23, 2014

somerset said:
......do you mean the figures that clearly show that the deficit has reduced by a third over the last 5 years?

Please could you provide a link to these figures? Everything I can find (e.g. the OBR's own numbers) suggests that the deficit for 2013 is significantly higher than that for 2008.

somerset · Oct 23, 2014

Raleigh Chopper said:
Convert got there before me but to answer.
No. The figures that show that only 1 third of the promised 100% has been paid off and we are borrowing more than this time last year when borrowing was promised to be kept under control.
His pre election line was why should our children and grand children have to pay back the deficit.
Cameron has a nasty habit of using children in his promises even his own to tug at the heart strings.
So you see, lie after lie or promises that he wont or cannot keep.

But the deficit IS 33% less than it was 5 years ago......simple facts,....I don't deal in rhetoric like you.......

spring hall convert · Oct 23, 2014

Raleigh Chopper said:
Cameron has a nasty habit of using children in his promises even his own to tug at the heart strings.

Especially disabled ones.

He made similar unfufilled promises on immigration, which he must have known weren't deliverable as part of the EU. He's either lied or not delivered, we the British people should hold him to account and turf the Tories out. What message does it send if he is allowed to not deliver on key pre-election promises?

spring hall convert · Oct 23, 2014

somerset said:
But the deficit IS 33% less than it was 5 years ago......simple facts,....I don't deal in rhetoric like you.......

They said the deficit would be gone. That was the pre-eclection promise. They have failed.

How do you know Labour wouldn't have done better? May I remind you the economy was GROWING when the Tories were elected. They soon kicked that to death and set about their ideologically driven destruction of the public sector. A large growth in output would have been just as effective as cuts. A combination of the 2 would have been preferable.

somerset · Oct 23, 2014

jgmcdee said:
Please could you provide a link to these figures? Everything I can find (e.g. the OBR's own numbers) suggests that the deficit for 2013 is significantly higher than that for 2008.

The last 5 years are from 2009 ish..

This years is forecast at 93.7bn

In 2009/10 it reached a peak at 167bn

http://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/net-borrowing-96-12-600x531.png

somerset · Oct 23, 2014

spring hall convert said:
They said the deficit would be gone. That was the pre-eclection promise. They have failed.

How do you know Labour wouldn't have done better? May I remind you the economy was GROWING when the Tories were elected. They soon kicked that to death and set about their ideologically driven destruction of the public sector. A large growth in output would have been just as effective as cuts. A combination of the 2 would have been preferable.

I don't care who would have done better, I was responding to deficit comment, I think a reduction is a reduction, one third reduction is not bad given the economic conditions.

User removed 4 · Oct 23, 2014

Gwylan said:
But that's precisely what I mean: withdrawal from the EU was not seen as a priority because there were other factors involved. If withdrawal from the EU had been seen as a major issue, Footy's suitability as a leader wouldn't have mattered

Absolute rubbish , would you vote FOR nick griffin if he advocated staying in the EU? Also back in 1982 Europe wasn't such an issue and you know it , howeveryou also know that it is now.

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Cameron - what a complete tool

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