Southern Rail STRIKE details

Yoda · Dec 17, 2016

Billy the Fish said:
I'm not having a pop at DD or sticking up for Southern, I'm just calling out some obvious bullshit. If drivers had a solid case against DOO then they wouldn't need to exaggerate so much, surely

In that case, have YOU physically seen the image that a driver has to look at? If not you do not have a leg to stand on, much like two members of the public that have been dragged by a train after getting caught in the doors of a DOO service.

We know that the images GTR have released are from the 378 class (run by Gatwick Express) as they showed they train from the outside before, and you could see the red branding paint work on the camera. At no point have they ever shown the camera image on the much older 377 class that Southern run. Well, actually, not true. As that image a few pages ago now was taken by Sky News for a report they ran at the beginning of this week in their website.

Deadly Danson · Dec 17, 2016

beorhthelm said:
i have two doubts (while not disagreeing the general objective). firstly, GTR isnt a testbed for DOO, its already out there so theres no reason to make GTR some sort of sacrificial franchise as the precedents and example of its use are already there. secondly, this claim about DfT block, i dont find anything about it. i find information about an earlier such interference back last spring, but not not more recent - please point me to the reports i may have missed. the offer in the autumn of guaranteed-second-person-except-exceptions was rejected by the union. just before they advised their members to accept the new contracts being imposed and lost their option to negotiate or hold the company to account on those exception (because the public wouldnt follow or know when breaches occured). imo, "they" could achieve their objective more simply and more directly.

As far as I know (and I may be wrong) GTR is the first major mainline franchise - since the McNulty report - to attempt to go fully DOO rather than have a mixture of both which is where the precedent comes in. The Spring statement from Wilkinson was never denied or refuted by anyone (it was apologised for which is very different) and everything the Dft and government has done since has served to confirm this (the constant propagation of DOO as the safest form of transport known to man, the refusal to reveal confidential franchise documents by the Dft, the anti-union legislation etc). I'm not going to search through statements etc now but it was stated by the RMT I think that GTR were happy with a deal back in September with the RMT that was similar to the Scotrail deal but it was blocked by the Dft. Of course I'm not privy to these meetings and the inner workings of the Dft so I can never be certain but I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that that's the case and if it is I wish they would just be open about it. All the clues point in this direction - as [MENTION=16399]pb21[/MENTION] stated: "Why don't southern just back down? The drivers will be happy, the conductors will be happy and the users will be happy/happier.

Whether or not DOO is safe, surely having the additional trained member of staff on board is safer.

Any additional cost over DOO will be minimal. It seems like it makes sense, small cost better service.

Why are southern so insistent on this happening?"

and the only answer that makes any sense is the above.

Bozza · Dec 17, 2016

Deadly Danson said:
As far as I know (and I may be wrong) GTR is the first major mainline franchise - since the McNulty report - to attempt to go fully DOO rather than have a mixture of both which is where the precedent comes in. The Spring statement from Wilkinson was never denied or refuted by anyone (it was apologised for which is very different) and everything the Dft and government has done since has served to confirm this (the constant propagation of DOO as the safest form of transport known to man, the refusal to reveal confidential franchise documents by the Dft, the anti-union legislation etc). I'm not going to search through statements etc now but it was stated by the RMT I think that GTR were happy with a deal back in September with the RMT that was similar to the Scotrail deal but it was blocked by the Dft. Of course I'm not privy to these meetings and the inner workings of the Dft so I can never be certain but I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that that's the case and if it is I wish they would just be open about it. All the clues point in this direction - as [MENTION=16399]pb21[/MENTION] stated: "Why don't southern just back down? The drivers will be happy, the conductors will be happy and the users will be happy/happier.

Whether or not DOO is safe, surely having the additional trained member of staff on board is safer.

Any additional cost over DOO will be minimal. It seems like it makes sense, small cost better service.

Why are southern so insistent on this happening?"

and the only answer that makes any sense is the above.

I must have missed where Southern said they don't want an additional trained member of staff on board. Where was that?

Deadly Danson · Dec 17, 2016

Bozza said:
I must have missed where Southern said they don't want an additional trained member of staff on board. Where was that?

Of course they haven't admitted that but in their actions of knocking down the length of training (and in the midst of time I can't remember the exact timescales) but it's from something like 12 weeks to 3 weeks and in their actions of repeatedly not scheduling an OBS for services even when there is no disruption. I have driven many splitters when there is no OBS to give the passengers any guidance over whether they are sitting in the correct part of the train. And these are not commuters but daytime travellers who need assistance. They didn't wait long to break their "there will always be a 2nd member of staff onboard except in exceptional circumstances" rule.

beorhthelm · Dec 17, 2016

Deadly Danson said:
As far as I know (and I may be wrong) GTR is the first major mainline franchise - since the McNulty report - to attempt to go fully DOO rather than have a mixture of both which is where the precedent comes in.

it maybe the only one to attempt to go DOO in the past few years, but the point was there are DOO services across London on both the Southern and Southeastern franchises, c2c, and of course Thameslink and Gatwick Express (which were previously separate franchises). the precedent is already set, theres no need to make a demonstration. i appreciate you dont want to go searching for statements and reports about negotiations, i have looked briefly into the claim and its not forthcoming. theres blogs, forum posts with innuendo, nothing of substance. it seems like a reported incident from earlier in the dispute has been regurgitated as occurring later in the dispute. (Wilkinson's comment where prior to the dispute, there was something later after the first few strikes).

Deadly Danson said:
Whether or not DOO is safe, surely having the additional trained member of staff on board is safer.

i do agree, i see no good reason put forward to remove them, but also feel a well made argument has not been put for keeping the current role. RMT could have been campaigning for years on the matter but just pipped up with strike action.

Deadly Danson said:
Any additional cost over DOO will be minimal. It seems like it makes sense, small cost better service.

Why are southern so insistent on this happening?"

well, either it is quite a large cost or there wouldn't be a driver to cut that cost? i do accept that the DfT seem to be involved, just not as a orchestrated conspiracy. Southern and DfT seem to have adopted a myopic belligerence that happens in organisations, not seeing other view after spending so long selling and convincing themselves of the merits of a policy. i think they chose GTR to pursue the policy simply because it already runs so many DOO services.

on another note, i have taken onboard point about drivers dealing with the 12 car trains. i've walked through a couple of times and it feels like the never-ending train. a problem i have is that the union highlights the problems of 12 car trains as if they apply to 8 or even 4 car services, with "driver cant see the length" etc. maybe they should have picked their battles, as insisted longer trains have second staff, on passenger safety made a case for late night services, so on. in negotiations tie the company up in exceptions to DOO, rather than allow the company to dictate their exceptions. RMT played a weak hand poorly. ASLEF is different kettle of fish because they hold more power it seems, though they do no favours with public perception and would be better to set conditions and fix problems rather than outright rejection. end of day, the change should be suspended until GTR at least has the staff to run the regular timetable.

JC Footy Genius · Dec 18, 2016

Rail union boss vows to topple Tories

Tapes reveal aim of Christmas strike chaos

A militant union leader behind the rail strikes causing chaos for millions says unions are co-ordinating action to “bring down this bloody working-class-hating Tory government”.

Sean Hoyle, president of the RMT, declared that “rule No 1” for his union, whose members have held a string of strikes on the beleaguered Southern rail network, was to “strive to replace the capitalist system with a socialist order”, telling a meeting of hard-left activists last month, “if we all spit together we can drown the *******s”.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/rail-union-boss-vows-to-topple-tories-c0hm3r3sh

Yes it's all about safety ...

kingcole · Dec 18, 2016

I admit to a biit of ignorance on this and i really dont like unions.

However. On my way back tonight i made the 2317 out of Vic to Shoreham. We were held at
Three Bridges. Driver said it was a driver only operated train and had to wait for platform staff to be dispatched.

Ok. Was delayed 5 mins but what is the issue here??

And if we already have DOO on Southern, why the drama and lives inconvenienced by this awful strike

perseus · Dec 18, 2016

My personal experience (recent accident disembarking in darkness) is that safety of passengers* is being compromised by current practices.

The stations are not the relatively modern Victoria Line, but Victorian relics.

I originally started from the a different premise that trains were no more than long buses and should be treated the same way. I've changed my mind.

(*Exactly how hazardous is a matter of degree, buses seem hazardous at times, in comparison.)

pasty · Dec 21, 2016

Merry Christmas

Beach Hut · Dec 21, 2016

Yes thanks Southern 06:22 cancelled, Brighton trains to London Cancelled so next one 07:01 - FFS

pasty · Dec 21, 2016

Beach Hut said:
Yes thanks Southern 06:22 cancelled, Brighton trains to London Cancelled so next one 07:01 - FFS

No WFH today Mr Hut?

Beach Hut · Dec 21, 2016

pasty said:
No WFH today Mr Hut?

Sadly not as need to be entertained tonight by a supplier

oddsonlaughter · Dec 21, 2016

Added fun today as well as due to a "technical" fault Journey planners and info screens are not displaying the correct information

It is such a mess

pasty · Dec 21, 2016

Good grief, how has it come to this :nono:

Soldiers standing by to drive rail replacement buses

Springal · Dec 21, 2016

pasty said:
Good grief, how has it come to this

Soldiers standing by to drive rail replacement buses

It is very odd. When the conductor strike is on, if I need to be in London a bit later than the last train to Worthing at 17.06, I'll just drive to Brighton or Arundel and park. If that was replaced by a BUS trip there was no way I'd go in as that would be much worse than my (improved) trip to Brighton or Arundel. Understand it re; ASLEF strikes though.

One thing that bothers me, is the driver overtime ban and the fact that Southern only seem to know if a train is going to run 10 minutes before it is 'timetabled' - are they really that dis-organised they have no idea what services drivers will be able to operate without overtime?

Herr Tubthumper · Dec 21, 2016

So. Gatwick to Clapham, what's the deal today?

Thunder Bolt · Dec 21, 2016

oddsonlaughter said:
Added fun today as well as due to a "technical" fault Journey planners and info screens are not displaying the correct information

It is such a mess

[tweet]811468568143478788[/tweet]

Springal · Dec 21, 2016

Herr Tubthumper said:
So. Gatwick to Clapham, what's the deal today?

You should be fine, but some possibility of short notice cancellations.

My missus made it Worthing-Brighton-London Bridge pretty much on time / as expected. And trains are looking pretty normal from South coast to London at the moment.

Herr Tubthumper · Dec 21, 2016

Springal said:
You should be fine, but some possibility of short notice cancellations.

My missus made it Worthing-Brighton-London Bridge pretty much on time / as expected. And trains are looking pretty normal from South coast to London at the moment.

Thanks. I need to be in a Clapham craft bar at 2pm, cant be late.

Springal · Dec 21, 2016

Herr Tubthumper said:
Thanks. I need to be in a Clapham craft bar at 2pm, cant be late.

I have a similar appointment at 3pm by Tower Bridge, so I also hope I am not late

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