daveinprague
New member
Despite the EU? How can that happen? Do they have sovereignty?
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[Politics] Brexit
- Thread starter KingstonSeagull
- Start date
Despite the EU? How can that happen? Do they have sovereignty?
D
Deleted member 22389
Guest
All I did was posted a link about manufacturing, and tried to make a joke about migration to CZ. It's all got far too serious. This stuff has been spoken about a billion times as well.
Baldseagull
Well-known member
Whereas in our system, if a seat is won by Labour say, with a massive majority, and five other seats are won narrowly by the Tories, Tories get 5 seats even if across the six seats Labour were the most popular choice. At least the representation in the EU that we have is a fair representation of the parties that gained significant vote numbers. It is a different democratic system, it is democratic, we can argue about which of the two is most democratic, but given that Democracy means rule by the people, the one that reflects closest the choices of the people, as a whole, and can not swung by gerrymandering would seem to have an advantage to me.
larus
Well-known member
In general, our system usually has the most popular party in power. The boundary commission are doing work to standardise the seat sizes I believe as, in recent times, the seat sizes have favoured Labour. Less votes required per MP.
In regards the EU, we vote for MEPs. The commission and Presidents are not elected by the voters. That's the main area of contention when people complain about the lack of democracy and bearing in mind the power of Juncker/Tusk (for example being at the G7), then these positions should be elected.
Oh yeah, and insisting on re-runs of referendum when the votes go the wrong way.
And also, not being open about the ultimate goal of the EU, which is the destruction of the nation state and the imposition of a superstate with parliaments eventually being little more than rubber-stamping town-halls.
But apart from that, yeah, they're really democratic.
Baldseagull
Well-known member
As if you ever had any idea.
Baldseagull
Well-known member
In the EU there is no "whipping" from the Commission, they just do not have anything like power over the MEP's, that a Prime minister or even opposition leader has over their MP's, only the MEP's pass legislation, no unelected body can reject their decision, unlike in the UK. The method for MEP's getting things in their agenda into the thoughts of the commission is through Non legislative reports and debates in Parliament, the commissions job is to listen to the Parliament and Council (the heads of the national governments) and craft legislation to address the matters raised.
In the UK, the leaders of the Parties are not selected by the voters, they are selected by their parties. Therefore the PM, is not directly selected by the people, certainly not in how Theresa May first got the role, and has a hell of a lot more power over the UK Parliament than the EU President has over the EU parliament.
Labour allow the membership to vote for a person from a list nominated by enough labour MP's.
Conservatives currently need 2 MP's to nominate, and only the MP's vote.
Please give me an example of when the EU has insisted on a member redoing a referendum.
Please provide evidence that the ultimate goal of the EU is the destruction of the nation state and a "imposition" of a superstate.
Baldseagull
Well-known member
Yes, the EU would require Ireland to enforce a border with the UK eventually, if we make it necessary by leaving without a deal, and don't get something sorted. The EU has not said it will not have a border if we leave without a deal and do not honour the fall back agreement, just that it is supporting it's member Ireland by not accepting any future trading arrangements with the UK that would require them to have one there.
drew
Drew
And the problem with that system is the unrepresentative way that Parliament is made up following an election. PR is considerably more democratic than first past the post. However, two main protagonists in the country don't want it as it would dilute their perceived power. We lurch from one political ideology to another.
Baldseagull
Well-known member
No, you have this wrong. We have said we will ensure one won't be necessary, we had to, to move forward with negotiations, if we go back on that and make it necessary, there will be one. If we leave without a deal N.I. stays in the customs union, if we stick to our word, and the DUP will have a fit because N.I. will have a border with the rest of the UK that needs to be marshalled.
larus
Well-known member
In the original agreement, it stated that nothing was agreed until everything was agreed. It was all very vague just to get something signed to “move onto the next phase”.
There is no way that NI will be in a separate customs agreement to the rest of the UK. Never going to happen and, if TM was even to hint at that, many remain supporting Tory MPs would be ready to oust her. It’s called the Conservative and Unionist Party. Allowing a border between NI and the rest of the UK would be seen as a first step towards NI being part of a united Ireland.
As I said before, if they wanted that and voted for it, then that’s fine. But there’s no way the Remain vote can be viewed as being a vote for an internal border to the rest of the UK. BTW, much more of the NI trade is within the UK compared to ROI.
Garry Nelson's teacher
Well-known member
With respect: 'no' it's not all that matters. He needs markets - and if he is targeting Japan then it's possible that it might be harder outside the EU than in it. (I thought that was quite relevant on a Brexit thread,) But let's hope he does well.
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larus
Well-known member
I agree that PR would be a fairer representation. I assume that you’d have been happy for UKIP to have had Circe 100 MPs when they achieved about 15% in the election.
In regards ‘lurching’ from one political ideology to another.
The last true left-wing government this country had was in 1979 before Thatcher. This was a right-wing government. Once she was removed by Major, who was centre-right, the politics in this country have been fairly stable in reality. All governments have been business friendly, centrist type governments. For example, Bliar/Brown never increased corporate/personal taxation too high (only to 50% from 40% on income tax) and were actively engaged with the City.
Now there is a real left-wing opposition. If they get in then I would agree there would be a huge change in politics. Renationalisation, higher taxes, huge spending, etc.
This country has not voted in a left-wing party since Oct 1974, so I would disagree with your view that we lurch between ideaologies. Policies change, even when new leaders/ministers get elected - that’s vastly different from a different doctrine.
Garry Nelson's teacher
Well-known member
You know the answer: not yet. But it's you boys who keep talking about the longer term benefits of Brexit and this (Japan) might well be a case where it looks worse in the long term than it does in the short term.
Garry Nelson's teacher
Well-known member
I sort of agreed with some of your points until I came to the last 2 sentences wherein you default to some rather over-optimistic Leaver rhetoric which looks less convincing with each passing month. No deal is very, very bad news in all sorts of ways. (I doubt if Parliament would sanction it.)
However, just like 99.9% of the discussions we all have, 'we'll see' is probably as sensible comment as one can make.
Raleigh Chopper
New member
This is all extremely important stuff for everyone in the country, MP's are split and furious.
But not that furious as it only seems important enough to be furious when they are not on a 6 week holiday.
Ok there have been a few bits and pieces in the summer, but where has Rees Mogg, Boris and the other hard Brexiteers been.
As soon as they reappear from doing F all for the past 6 weeks they will start it all up again.
This also goes for May and her cronies too.
Ok some may have liked the break from it, but time is running out, tick tock and all that bollox.
The negotiations and debating should have continued through the summer rather than sunning themselves on the French Riviera.
But not that furious as it only seems important enough to be furious when they are not on a 6 week holiday.
Ok there have been a few bits and pieces in the summer, but where has Rees Mogg, Boris and the other hard Brexiteers been.
As soon as they reappear from doing F all for the past 6 weeks they will start it all up again.
This also goes for May and her cronies too.
Ok some may have liked the break from it, but time is running out, tick tock and all that bollox.
The negotiations and debating should have continued through the summer rather than sunning themselves on the French Riviera.
That's not quite true: May was selected by her party but that's only because other candidates dropped out. If someone had stood against her, it would have gone to a vote of the members.
And it's certainly not true of Labour, that's decided by a vote of the members ... and Corbyn polled more than 70%
However, in his original post, Larus was also wrong when he said that Tusk and Juncker are unelected. The former was elected by MEPs in July 2014, by quite a healthy majority. Tusk is also elected, but it's a small electorate as the President of the European Council is chosen by heads of government of the EU countries. However, that's a larger electorate than the leader of the Liberal Party has. Do you want to say that Vince Cable is unelected?
Two Professors
Two Mad Professors
Ah,bless.Did you bang your head,trying to tie your laces again?Nanny kiss it better for you.
Two Professors
Two Mad Professors
Totally underwhelmed that a trading bloc with little or no natural resources signs an agreement with a big industrial nation with no natural resources.The future is trading with resource-rich countries at lower technological/industrial levels,not swapping cheese and rice.
Baldseagull
Well-known member
In all cases, it is the parties that choose their leader, not the wider electorate, is the point I was trying to make. Tusk was elected by the Council, but Juncker was elected by the Parliament. Larus didn't say they were unelected, he said they were not elected by the people, which is true, but is also true of various parts in UK Government that hold significant power. The head of our system is there by birthright, for life.
Well OK, but that's also true for pretty much most countries. Germany and Italy's PMs are not voted by the people either. And Australia seem to swap PMs with great regularity without any input from the electorate.