UK rules out military action in Iraq.

dingodan · Jun 12, 2014

"The planned war against Iraq without a Declaration of War is illegal. It is unwise because of many unforeseen consequences that are likely to result. It is immoral and unjust, because it has nothing to do with US security and because Iraq has not initiated aggression against us. We must understand that the American people become less secure when we risk a major conflict driven by commercial interests and not constitutionally authorized by Congress. Victory under these circumstances is always elusive, and unintended consequences are inevitable"

Ron Paul, February 2002.

TheJasperCo · Jun 12, 2014

dingodan said:
"The planned war against Iraq without a Declaration of War is illegal. It is unwise because of many unforeseen consequences that are likely to result. It is immoral and unjust, because it has nothing to do with US security and because Iraq has not initiated aggression against us. We must understand that the American people become less secure when we risk a major conflict driven by commercial interests and not constitutionally authorized by Congress. Victory under these circumstances is always elusive, and unintended consequences are inevitable"

Ron Paul, February 2002.

The West probably got round that by arguing it wasn't a war per se, more an incursion to stabilise the country.

dangull · Jun 12, 2014

TheJasperCo said:
The West probably got round that by arguing it wasn't a war per se, more an incursion to stabilise the country.

Well that worked out well then didnt it ?

pastafarian · Jun 13, 2014

Mustafa said:
Just over 11 years ago we turned Iraq into a war zone and removed the one leader who could have prevented all this from happening. Well now it's happening, we're to blame, and we won't go near it. We completely shat on that country and left it to rot, didn't we.

totally agree with you and i agree with the sentiments on here.

we have no business getting rid of dictators and wronguns under the false pretence they are a threat to us.

As long as they keep their crap within their own borders we must leave them be to get on with it.

i know 1000`s or 100`s of 1000`s of civilians including children will be starved, raped, tortured and murdered and live under brutal oppression under these madmen but i am afraid its tough titty......its not our problem its theirs.

There was no evidence Saddam was a threat to anyone outside Iraq, No one now disputes Blair and Bush made it up. Saddam should have been left in peace to get on with what he was doing.

Its not as if winkers like Mugabe or Kim Jong are going to live forever is it! When they die there is a chance their people will be free of the utter madness they have had to endure. Of course there is also the chance another winker will come in and continue the barbarity for another 50 years..... but thats just the way the cookie crumbles.

Either way .......**** em.......its not our problem.

LargeHadronZugzwang · Jun 13, 2014

The hypocrisy of our Warlords in office; the Empire hangers-on, the rank shallow actions of those with no shame. They are the ones that ignored the biggest march in this land, they went ahead anyway with their messianic stupidity. We have left an appalling legacy of chaos and depleted uranium.

Deleted member 22389 · Jun 13, 2014

We need to very careful that this crap doesn't advance and eventually end up on Europe's doorstep including our own one day.

pastafarian · Jun 13, 2014

bashlsdir said:
We need to very careful that this crap doesn't advance and eventually end up on Europe's doorstep including our own one day.

Dont worry,no need to be concerned,i am sure the Jihadist movement have no aspirations of enforcing their beliefs,either theologically or through violence on Europe

Deleted member 22389 · Jun 13, 2014

pastafarian said:
Dont worry,no need to be concerned,i am sure the Jihadist movement have no aspirations of enforcing their beliefs,either theologically or through violence on Europe

Wonder where the next stop is. Could it push up in to Turkey. Honestly like yourself the people with their eyes open have seen this shit coming.

somerset · Jun 13, 2014

bashlsdir said:
We need to very careful that this crap doesn't advance and eventually end up on Europe's doorstep including our own one day.

...and if it does?!?!......... we are a structured enough society to manage it........

Deleted member 22389 · Jun 13, 2014

somerset said:
...and if it does?!?!......... we are a structured enough society to manage it........

Even if they are not militants there is absolutely no control over anything. Soon you will not be able to seperate the good or the bad, it will just become one whether we like it or not.
I lived in Luton, that was enough for me.

BrightonPara · Jun 13, 2014

I'd like to see how many of you keyboard warriors actually ever served in Iraq? Some of the views on here are normal 'media' supported opinions. Being on the ground and seeing it first hand is something quite different, I for one certainly don't agree for the political reasons for going in, but I certainly do for the humanitarian.

1- Before 2003 no western media were allowed into Iraq, and until the American and Brit military finally entered it became apparant how bad the dictatorship was!! The sadam rule was not great and he certainly did not rule through respect, he ruled through fear. The secret police turning up in the middle of the night and snatching people before torturing them to within an inc of thier life!

2- Does anyone remember what happened during 1937-1938 , the Germans walked into Poland and we sat back watched and said it had nothing to do with us, a couple year later it was almost to late once we had been drawn into it, a war that cost over 11 million lives. Sometimes in war the best steps are preemptive ones. No man should be allowed to Gas 20'000 people no matter what thier religious beliefs.

3- the Middle East/North Africa has NEVER been peaceful, it has only ever known war. So just because it is now more acceptable for media crews to goto these places that we now see it. Weapons and tactics have changed over the year but the tribal and in country hasn't.

I do just want to add that whilst I don't condone our countries involvement and poor intelligence (WMD) leading to the war in Iraq, I would say that Iraq would be a no more stable place had we not entered.

Is Military action going to help them? Yes it would, but it's not the help they need, they need to realise it's what you do after the fighting has finished that counts, the Iraqis wanted control back far to quick!

daveinprague · Jun 13, 2014

1. The same Iraq we armed to the teeth to fight Iran. with Iran now probably ending up fighting ISIS.
2. No relevence.
3. Maybe, but in its history, our involvment has been recent and economic based.
4. Intelligence. Assad always said that he was fighting terrorists, the west chose to ignore, to the point of threatening air bombardment. Was it ISIS he was referring to? Do our intelligence agencies ever think anything through?

dingodan · Jun 13, 2014

BrightonPara said:
1- Before 2003 no western media were allowed into Iraq, and until the American and Brit military finally entered it became apparant how bad the dictatorship was!! The sadam rule was not great and he certainly did not rule through respect, he ruled through fear. The secret police turning up in the middle of the night and snatching people before torturing them to within an inc of thier life!

2- Does anyone remember what happened during 1937-1938 , the Germans walked into Poland and we sat back watched and said it had nothing to do with us, a couple year later it was almost to late once we had been drawn into it, a war that cost over 11 million lives. Sometimes in war the best steps are preemptive ones. No man should be allowed to Gas 20'000 people no matter what thier religious beliefs.

3- the Middle East/North Africa has NEVER been peaceful, it has only ever known war. So just because it is now more acceptable for media crews to goto these places that we now see it. Weapons and tactics have changed over the year but the tribal and in country hasn't.

I do just want to add that whilst I don't condone our countries involvement and poor intelligence (WMD) leading to the war in Iraq, I would say that Iraq would be a no more stable place had we not entered.

Is Military action going to help them? Yes it would, but it's not the help they need, they need to realise it's what you do after the fighting has finished that counts, the Iraqis wanted control back far to quick!

Yes he was a brutal dictator. But the West knew that before 2003. Actually they knew it while they were supplying him with Chemical and Biological weapons in the 80's. The same weapons used to justify invading the country 20 years later. If dictatorship is a reason for regime change, then we have huge amounts of work to do around the world, why pick just on Iraq. Also if torture is a red-line for you, we must consider invading ourselves too.

As for pre-emptive war, Hitlers incursion in to Poland was sold on the basis of the need to act preemptively. There is only one moral and lawful circumstance justifying war. That is when you are attacked. Anything else is aggression, a war crime. - See the Nuremberg Trials.

Yes, the Middle East and North Africa have a long history of political turbulence and violence. Many of the issues over there are intractable, and all of the issues over there can only be resolved by the people who live there. Why are we sending our friends and family to fight and die in a violent land thousands of miles away?

"Iraq would be a no more stable place had we not entered" - Yes it would. This is very well understood. Saddam Hussein was liked by the West precisely because he was able to keep control over the competing tribes and factions in the country.

dingodan · Jun 13, 2014

[MENTION=24214]BrightonPara[/MENTION]

Watch this video from 2:10 - 5:00

TheJasperCo · Jun 13, 2014

BrightonPara said:
I'd like to see how many of you keyboard warriors actually ever served in Iraq? Some of the views on here are normal 'media' supported opinions. Being on the ground and seeing it first hand is something quite different, I for one certainly don't agree for the political reasons for going in, but I certainly do for the humanitarian.

1- Before 2003 no western media were allowed into Iraq, and until the American and Brit military finally entered it became apparant how bad the dictatorship was!! The sadam rule was not great and he certainly did not rule through respect, he ruled through fear. The secret police turning up in the middle of the night and snatching people before torturing them to within an inc of thier life!

2- Does anyone remember what happened during 1937-1938 , the Germans walked into Poland and we sat back watched and said it had nothing to do with us, a couple year later it was almost to late once we had been drawn into it, a war that cost over 11 million lives. Sometimes in war the best steps are preemptive ones. No man should be allowed to Gas 20'000 people no matter what thier religious beliefs.

3- the Middle East/North Africa has NEVER been peaceful, it has only ever known war. So just because it is now more acceptable for media crews to goto these places that we now see it. Weapons and tactics have changed over the year but the tribal and in country hasn't.

I do just want to add that whilst I don't condone our countries involvement and poor intelligence (WMD) leading to the war in Iraq, I would say that Iraq would be a no more stable place had we not entered.

Is Military action going to help them? Yes it would, but it's not the help they need, they need to realise it's what you do after the fighting has finished that counts, the Iraqis wanted control back far to quick!

On a completely unrelated topic, is it true that when the Press accompanies soldiers on the front line, there's a mutual agreement between both sets of fighters to fire blank rounds so as to minimise the risk of journalists being shot?

maltaseagull · Jun 13, 2014

Mustafa said:
Just over 11 years ago we turned Iraq into a war zone and removed the one leader who could have prevented all this from happening. Well now it's happening, we're to blame, and we won't go near it. We completely shat on that country and left it to rot, didn't we.

To be fair we just went along with our "best friends " and did what they asked. Shame that nobody was able to stand up and say no at the time!

symyjym · Jun 13, 2014

dingodan said:
Yes he was a brutal dictator. But the West knew that before 2003. Actually they knew it while they were supplying him with Chemical and Biological weapons in the 80's. The same weapons used to justify invading the country 20 years later. If dictatorship is a reason for regime change, then we have huge amounts of work to do around the world, why pick just on Iraq. Also if torture is a red-line for you, we must consider invading ourselves too.

As for pre-emptive war, Hitlers incursion in to Poland was sold on the basis of the need to act preemptively. There is only one moral and lawful circumstance justifying war. That is when you are attacked. Anything else is aggression, a war crime. - See the Nuremberg Trials.

Yes, the Middle East and North Africa have a long history of political turbulence and violence. Many of the issues over there are intractable, and all of the issues over there can only be resolved by the people who live there. Why are we sending our friends and family to fight and die in a violent land thousands of miles away?

"Iraq would be a no more stable place had we not entered" - Yes it would. This is very well understood. Saddam Hussein was liked by the West precisely because he was able to keep control over the competing tribes and factions in the country.

Yep completely agree, we made Saddam the man he was. Sure he was no angel but at least we knew who to talk to, and he was weak enough to manipulate without bombing the whole country country back to the 18th century.

Killing Gaddafi was as unjust and we have crippled Libya as well. Some of the best educated people and doctors in the world came from these parts but that is now the West has made sure that this a thing of the past.

The West claims of itself as an advanced civilisation, and we should really lead by example, but all we have taught the Middle East is that it is ok to destroy countries and leaders.

Leighgull · Jun 13, 2014

It is a sad fact that Iraq turned down further US aid when it was offered. They preferred to take the equipment rather than the US marines. Interestingly the Islamist ISIS boys seem to be armed with M16s rather than AK47s...how did they get hold of that stuff?

beorhthelm · Jun 13, 2014

interesting point raised in the news last night that 60k (?) police and security where recently kicked off the pay roll in the areas that this trouble has emerged from. so how much of this is of the Baghdad governments making?

crookie · Jun 13, 2014

Read on the BBC earlier that 30000 troops dropped weapons and fled when confronted by around 800 ISIS fighters !! Seriously, how pathetic is that. Well worth the years and money spent training their armed forces. Hope these soldiers feel good about their actions now the citizens they were being paid to protect are suffering from summary executions and the undoubted brutality to follow

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