Baldock- our most improved player this season?

Ninja Elephant said:

Here's the thing [MENTION=457]sheebo[/MENTION], I haven't been "proved wrong" about Baldock, he'd turned in a few performances and won the game yesterday with his contribution. I have no issue saying that, I've said it many times because it is what happened. The first half also happened and that level of performance remains his standard, with the odd moment of inspiration thrown in. My opinion is that he is not very good, but is benefiting from playing with Murray over Hemed, which gives him some freedom.

Some players are terrible in a bad team, but can be effective in a good team despite not being as good as the players around him (Jonathan Walters!), it is about the team and right now, the team wins when he plays. Personally, I think that is more often than not despite and not because of him, but whatever - he has been contributing more this season so fair play to him. But when we sign a better quality striker in January - the difference in class will hopefully be as obvious as it is between Murray and Hemed.

Lastly, the Murray goal against Aston Villa is hardly an assist from Baldock just because the ball bounced off him before Murray scored a marvellous goal from long range!

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sheebo said:

Sometimes you should just sit back and admit you are being proved wrong about a player [MENTION=13055]Ninja Elephant[/MENTION]. I've had it a few times - Bruno the most recent example and also Duffy after his first 2 games where he was poor. Baldock was clearly a key part of the squad last season and people have started to notice what he does more. This season he's in most people's top 3 or 5 for player of the season. You've dug yourself a hole by being over the top NSC-style critical of him and to save face you're still carrying on! (from what you can see of the screen with the egg everywhere)

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Ninja Elephant said:

Ok, so obviously I think all of this praise is ridiculous. His goal yesterday was excellent, and one hell of a surprise. Not to see him hiding outside the box, that's not overly unusual but he actually kicked it. Hard. Quality goal and then a quality cross for Murray's goal - my criticism of him is that he doesn't affect the game at all, but in those two moments he turned the game for us yesterday and deserves high praise for it. It's like with Skalak, he often isn't in the game at all but then we get a set piece and he directly impacts the game with a delivery. Overall, his performance was as it usually is, he's a runner on a football pitch. Ineffective up against any opponent at all, no real ideas on the ball and if he were to win the ball back he'd only lose it immediately anyway because his a game is to pass to Murray, the b is to pass to Knockaert or if neither of those things are possible, he'll try to win a free kick.

All the praise of his "defending from the front" is generous at best, he runs around without doing anything. Maybe 1 in 5 the opposition player will misplace a pass or shank it out of play, so fair play, his running around has had an impact. But the rest of the time it doesn't make a difference. Nobody has mentioned the numerous times a move broke down because he couldn't keep hold of it, and nobody has mentioned that when Baldock tries to intercept a pass he misses, but Knockaert at least twice made an interception which actually got us the ball back. His effort actually had results.

As usual, I really think people should post where they watched the game from. I sit in the East Stand Upper, so I can see the whole game. If you sit in a lower tier or behind a goal, you don't have the same view, so you won't hold the same opinion. I'm very clear in my opinion, which is based entirely on his performances. He also needs to pack in getting in the faces of opponents and then having a cry to the referee when they tell him to piss off, he comes across as a tedious little man who is carried by the team. Yesterday he won us the game, obviously I'd be more than happy if he did that every game but he won't - he did nothing at all against Aston Villa but that's conveniently ignored and he did nothing in the first half yesterday, also not mentioned. But he was a worthy man of the match for the excellent goal and brilliant cross, it's just a shame it's completely out of character.

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chaileyjem said:

Baldock was probably anonymous for most of the Boro game because he was taken off at half time.

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Ninja Elephant said:

Ok, so obviously I think all of this praise is ridiculous. His goal yesterday was excellent, and one hell of a surprise. Not to see him hiding outside the box, that's not overly unusual but he actually kicked it. Hard. Quality goal and then a quality cross for Murray's goal - my criticism of him is that he doesn't affect the game at all, but in those two moments he turned the game for us yesterday and deserves high praise for it. It's like with Skalak, he often isn't in the game at all but then we get a set piece and he directly impacts the game with a delivery. Overall, his performance was as it usually is, he's a runner on a football pitch. Ineffective up against any opponent at all, no real ideas on the ball and if he were to win the ball back he'd only lose it immediately anyway because his a game is to pass to Murray, the b is to pass to Knockaert or if neither of those things are possible, he'll try to win a free kick.

All the praise of his "defending from the front" is generous at best, he runs around without doing anything. Maybe 1 in 5 the opposition player will misplace a pass or shank it out of play, so fair play, his running around has had an impact. But the rest of the time it doesn't make a difference. Nobody has mentioned the numerous times a move broke down because he couldn't keep hold of it, and nobody has mentioned that when Baldock tries to intercept a pass he misses, but Knockaert at least twice made an interception which actually got us the ball back. His effort actually had results.

As usual, I really think people should post where they watched the game from. I sit in the East Stand Upper, so I can see the whole game. If you sit in a lower tier or behind a goal, you don't have the same view, so you won't hold the same opinion. I'm very clear in my opinion, which is based entirely on his performances. He also needs to pack in getting in the faces of opponents and then having a cry to the referee when they tell him to piss off, he comes across as a tedious little man who is carried by the team. Yesterday he won us the game, obviously I'd be more than happy if he did that every game but he won't - he did nothing at all against Aston Villa but that's conveniently ignored and he did nothing in the first half yesterday, also not mentioned. But he was a worthy man of the match for the excellent goal and brilliant cross, it's just a shame it's completely out of character.

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dazzer6666 said:

It's 1.10 in......'bounced off him'.

http://www.skysports.com/football/brighton-vs-a-villa/358305

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Ninja Elephant said:

Murray's flick to a static Baldock, simple return pass, first touch into the space and second to rifle into the corner.

I don't call that an assist, whoever played it. Murray did all the work there. Whipping in an inch perfect cross for someone to tap in is an assist, passing it to someone who then does all the hard work is just a pass for me, whoever had passed it. That video again highlights the difference in class between Murray and Hemed, Murray needs far less help. Hemed and Baldock almost always need the perfect ball, Murray doesn't, that's the difference and it would have been the difference between 2nd and, in my opinion, 1st last season. If we'd had Murray even just from January, we would have won the league.

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Ninja Elephant said:

Ok, so obviously I think all of this praise is ridiculous. His goal yesterday was excellent, and one hell of a surprise. Not to see him hiding outside the box, that's not overly unusual but he actually kicked it. Hard. Quality goal and then a quality cross for Murray's goal - my criticism of him is that he doesn't affect the game at all, but in those two moments he turned the game for us yesterday and deserves high praise for it. It's like with Skalak, he often isn't in the game at all but then we get a set piece and he directly impacts the game with a delivery. Overall, his performance was as it usually is, he's a runner on a football pitch. Ineffective up against any opponent at all, no real ideas on the ball and if he were to win the ball back he'd only lose it immediately anyway because his a game is to pass to Murray, the b is to pass to Knockaert or if neither of those things are possible, he'll try to win a free kick.

All the praise of his "defending from the front" is generous at best, he runs around without doing anything. Maybe 1 in 5 the opposition player will misplace a pass or shank it out of play, so fair play, his running around has had an impact. But the rest of the time it doesn't make a difference. Nobody has mentioned the numerous times a move broke down because he couldn't keep hold of it, and nobody has mentioned that when Baldock tries to intercept a pass he misses, but Knockaert at least twice made an interception which actually got us the ball back. His effort actually had results.

As usual, I really think people should post where they watched the game from. I sit in the East Stand Upper, so I can see the whole game. If you sit in a lower tier or behind a goal, you don't have the same view, so you won't hold the same opinion. I'm very clear in my opinion, which is based entirely on his performances. He also needs to pack in getting in the faces of opponents and then having a cry to the referee when they tell him to piss off, he comes across as a tedious little man who is carried by the team. Yesterday he won us the game, obviously I'd be more than happy if he did that every game but he won't - he did nothing at all against Aston Villa but that's conveniently ignored and he did nothing in the first half yesterday, also not mentioned. But he was a worthy man of the match for the excellent goal and brilliant cross, it's just a shame it's completely out of character.

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Ninja Elephant said:

I missed Preston, so I'm relying on the highlights. I might be being harsh, and the result is all that matters, but would you agree he was fortunate with the goal in that game? Did his best to miss it! And missed a sitter after the goal yesterday, no? Good header vs Wolves and spectacular goal against Wednesday from an outrageous through ball from Dunk.



Personally, I don't agree that his runs do create space for others, or stretches the defence. I say that because his runs lack any intellect, he runs around a lot but there's not a purpose to it, it's more for show than anything else. When CMS closed down a goalkeeper or a defender, he was actually forcing them to do something or trying to tackle them but Baldock just runs at them a bit and that's it. Sometimes he'll get close enough to unsettle them, but not usually. He rarely forces an error and almost never gets the ball, so it's just for show. In contrast, when Knockaert, an obviously better player, does the same thing he more often than not makes something happen.

Against Villa, giving him the assist is a bit strong. He passed the ball, sure, but Murray's touch and long range hit caused the goal and really, Baldock can't claim too much of an assist there other than being the last person involved before Murray made the magic happen. If Hemed were more mobile, he'd be in the team with Murray but again, if he's going to score a goal like yesterday and deliver crosses as the one for the goal then he justifies his place in the team.

But it's clearly an area of the team we could bring in a far stronger player without losing the running around, which you get from just about any striker.

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Wardy's twin said:

Top 5 for player of the season? Dunk, Duffy, Bruno, Murray, AK ,Sidwell so definitely not top 3 and I can't see him being top 5 or 6

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Ninja Elephant said:

Here's the thing [MENTION=457]sheebo[/MENTION], I haven't been "proved wrong" about Baldock, he'd turned in a few performances and won the game yesterday with his contribution. I have no issue saying that, I've said it many times because it is what happened. The first half also happened and that level of performance remains his standard, with the odd moment of inspiration thrown in. My opinion is that he is not very good, but is benefiting from playing with Murray over Hemed, which gives him some freedom.

Some players are terrible in a bad team, but can be effective in a good team despite not being as good as the players around him (Jonathan Walters!), it is about the team and right now, the team wins when he plays. Personally, I think that is more often than not despite and not because of him, but whatever - he has been contributing more this season so fair play to him. But when we sign a better quality striker in January - the difference in class will hopefully be as obvious as it is between Murray and Hemed.

Lastly, the Murray goal against Aston Villa is hardly an assist from Baldock just because the ball bounced off him before Murray scored a marvellous goal from long range!

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Sleaford Seagull said:

Couldn't disagree with you more. I'm not sure if you watch different games to most of us but Baldock is one of the most intelligent footballers we have at the club. One of the reasons Murray and Baldock are a good partnership is because they are both on the same wavelength, not many Championship strikers could match Murray's footballing intelligence. His assist against Villa was neither easy nor all Murray's work, he knows where his partner will be and all of the goals are proving this. Your view on Baldock is bewildering...comparing him to CMS is insulting he's twice the player.

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sheebo said:

I'd go (in no particular order): Dunk / Baldock / Murray / Knocky / Bruno - I did say most people's... Duffy, yes he's getting close but because he missed a fair few games he's not in the running yet, but of course he will be.

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