[Politics] Brexit

Lincoln Imp · Oct 18, 2016

deletebeepbeepbeep said:
If Brexit does need to be ratified in parliament it will make things very interesting, particularly for those MPs whose constituencies views differ from their own. It wouldn't seem feasible for May to get a majority but plenty of MPs will be scared of losing their seat.

I agree with you - this is such an interesting situation, and one that PPE students will be discussing for years. In theory it comes down to the question of how you define a representative parliament.

Some argue that parliamentarians are simply there to implement the views of the people. The alternative view is Burke's - "Parliament is a deliberative assembly of one nation, with one interest, that of the whole… You choose a member, indeed; but when you have chosen him he is not a member of Bristol, but he is a member of Parliament".

Almost everyone seems to agree that Burke's definition is the only one that will work, but with a sort of common sense caveat. The caveat is that, when considering what actions are in their view best for the nation, representatives must also "take note" of the will of the people. That's where the fights start. Many debates in parliament involve the conflicts that arise between what some see as the "will of the people" on the one hand and what others see as the "interests of the whole nation" on the other. These conflicts used to be fought mainly against the battleground of the rights of the common man. More recently, the issues have been more populist, and fought out on tabloid pages.

Even allowing for opinion polls we rarely know what the 'will of the people' is - but we do on this occasion - it appears to be that 17m people want us to leave the EU. However, most MPs believe that 'the interests of the nation' are served by the opposite. Here comes the conflct. If Burke's 200-year-old principles are going to apply, parliament will simply ignore the referendum result. MPs won't do that, but given their starting point ("we shouldn't leave the EU") it is reasonable to assume that in their view the next best thing 'for the nation' is leaving as lightly as possible - in other words, soft Brexit. That is where the fight has now reached.

If the conflict reaches parliament I doubt that sufficient numbers of MPs would fight for what they apparently see as being in the nation's interest. Whether that's because they have just changed their mind or because they have mortgages to pay and careers to build or because they believe in the glorious principles of true democracy probably depends on if you are a remainer or a leaver.

beorhthelm · Oct 18, 2016

The Clamp said:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/...el-even-poorer?utm_term=.akOnLxnl5#.immzRPzLw

Apologies for the Buzzfeed link but it explains what is about to happen in a simple and easy to understand way, which I thought might help some on here

interesting picture, the poor getting the weekly shop of chocolate?

The Clamp · Oct 18, 2016

beorhthelm said:
interesting picture, the poor getting the weekly shop of chocolate?

Crap pic.
Now see if you can have a go at the words.

beorhthelm · Oct 18, 2016

The Clamp said:
Crap pic.
Now see if you can have a go at the words.

yes, i understood them all! inflations will go up 1-2%. one less chocolate bar a week for the poor.

Green Cross Code Man · Oct 18, 2016

The Clamp said:
Crap pic.
Now see if you can have a go at the words.

Seemed like a reasonable article. Hypothesising that inflation may be on the rise. It's not hard to understand. It's not good short term, particularly for poorer people. But no-one knows what next week will bring, yet alone next month or next year.

The Greeks must be wishing they'd had Grexit a few years back. Our potential 'suffering' would seem like small trifles in comparison. But remainers don't seem to care about the poorer people in the Europe that they are so eager to stay in.

Thunder Bolt · Oct 18, 2016

The Spanish said:
part of the wealth that funded the establishment of the NHS, state schools etc was from NZ dairy products amongst many other things our vast empire provided. Why is the fella a goon? why do you think importing NZ cheese is so ludicrous when NZ dairy products are so closely linked to the UK's economy, or at least weere until we decided to join a club which is basicall yarranged around the french and germans not killing each other any more and sucking us in and bankrupting us again in the process.

Cheese was still rationed in 1948 when the NHS started. 1.5oz a week, or 43grams in new money!!

Pretty pink fairy · Oct 18, 2016

Green Cross Code Man said:
Seemed like a reasonable article. Hypothesising that inflation may be on the rise. It's not hard to understand. It's not good short term, particularly for poorer people. But no-one knows what next week will bring, yet alone next month or next year.

The Greeks must be wishing they'd had Grexit a few years back. Our potential 'suffering' would seem like small trifles in comparison. But remainers don't seem to care about the poorer people in the Europe that they are so eager to stay in.

SPOT ON..." i'm all right jack we must remain"
regards
DR

Thunder Bolt · Oct 18, 2016

Green Cross Code Man said:
Seemed like a reasonable article. Hypothesising that inflation may be on the rise. It's not hard to understand. It's not good short term, particularly for poorer people. But no-one knows what next week will bring, yet alone next month or next year.

The Greeks must be wishing they'd had Grexit a few years back. Our potential 'suffering' would seem like small trifles in comparison. But remainers don't seem to care about the poorer people in the Europe that they are so eager to stay in.

Inflation rising is not hyothesis. It has risen from 0.6% to 1% since September. This is today's figure.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37688593

The Clamp · Oct 18, 2016

Green Cross Code Man said:
Seemed like a reasonable article. Hypothesising that inflation may be on the rise. It's not hard to understand. It's not good short term, particularly for poorer people. But no-one knows what next week will bring, yet alone next month or next year.

The Greeks must be wishing they'd had Grexit a few years back. Our potential 'suffering' would seem like small trifles in comparison. But remainers don't seem to care about the poorer people in the Europe that they are so eager to stay in.

People DO know what the coming weeks and months will bring, your fault if you choose to ignore them. A family can lose their house in the space of 3 months so telling them to wait and see what happens next year, your problems are trifles, think of the greeks, is probably about as "I'm alright Jack" as you can get.

Lincoln Imp · Oct 18, 2016

Gwylan said:
CAP was my biggest single reason for voting to leave. I'm not fussed by immigration and didn't even mind our contributions to the EU budget but CAP is one big scam - we should have no part of it

I don't know if you're supposed to say that: according to the Wise Leavers on here everyone who voted Leave voted to stop free movement and so the 4% referendum majority is DEFINITELY a vote to propel ourselves out of the single market and stop Poles having the right to live in England/our children having the right to study and work in Europe. Anything else would be a DENIAL OF DEMOCRACY. Fox and Davies are working on it as we speak.

The Spanish · Oct 18, 2016

Pretty pink fairy said:
SPOT ON..." i'm all right jack we must remain"
regards
DR

the people who voted remain because they think it makes them more sophisticated and worldly, thats the best one. never mind about greece imploding and the cypriots having their bank accounts rifled through, as long as you say the right thing to other virtue signallers eh.

had a fella telling me yesterday what a disaster brexit was as he had a main course of 26 dollars in manhattan last week, and now thats about 20 quid. in all seriousness. there are dummies on both sides of the fence.

Pretty pink fairy · Oct 18, 2016

The Spanish said:
the people who voted remain because they think it makes them more sophisticated and worldly, thats the best one. never mind about greece imploding and the cypriots having their bank accounts rifled through, as long as you say the right thing to other virtue signallers eh.

had a fella telling me yesterday what a disaster brexit was as he had a main course of 26 dollars in manhattan last week, and now thats about 20 quid. in all seriousness. there are dummies on both sides of the fence.

Totally agree with you
regards
DR

pastafarian · Oct 18, 2016

Lincoln Imp said:
I don't know if you're supposed to say that: according to the Wise Leavers on here everyone who voted Leave voted to stop free movement and so the 4% referendum majority is DEFINITELY a vote to propel ourselves out of the single market and stop Poles having the right to live in England/our children having the right to study and work in Europe. Anything else would be a DENIAL OF DEMOCRACY. Fox and Davies are working on it as we speak.

endlessly twisting what has been said to you time after time......do you even realise you are doing it?
you are the epitome of the tiny remoaner clique that want to usurp the vote.

whether you were in favour of freedom of movement or not, you KNEW a vote to Leave was a vote to end free movement. This was the defined position
whether you were in favour of freedom of movement or not, you KNEW a vote to Remain was a vote to keep free movement. This was the defined position

whether you wanted to end membership of the single market or stay a member you KNEW a vote to Leave was to no longer be a member of it. This was the defined position
whether you wanted to end membership of the single market or stay a member you KNEW a vote to Remain was to be a member of it. This was the defined position

whether you wanted to remain under the ECJ or leave its clutches you KNEW a vote to Leave was to end its primacy. This was the defined position.
whether you wanted to remain under the ECJ or leave its clutches you KNEW a vote to Remain was to stay a part of it. This was the defined position.

Leave won
There is 100% DEFINITELY a mandate to Leave the ECJ, End membership of the single market and stop free movement.

This is not hard or soft Brexit. It was always known as simply Brexit
people had differing views on every topic but they KNEW what the vote meant on either side and what the consequences were

its quite pathetic the way you are trying to dissect and unpick the vote the way you are.......and a little bit desperate.

Pavilionaire · Oct 18, 2016

The very fact we have the terms "Hard Brexit" and "Soft Brexit" is indicative that the Leave campaign was NOT crystal clear about the manner in which it planned to exit the EU.

pastafarian · Oct 18, 2016

Pavilionaire said:
The very fact we have the terms "Hard Brexit" and "Soft Brexit" is indicative that the Leave campaign was NOT crystal clear about the manner in which it planned to exit the EU.

no
its indicative that remoaners (not the same as remainers) will invent any old crap to try and overturn the vote

Lincoln Imp · Oct 18, 2016

pastafarian said:
endlessly twisting what has been said to you time after time......do you even realise you are doing it?
you are the epitome of the tiny remoaner clique that want to usurp the vote.

whether you were in favour of freedom of movement or not, you KNEW a vote to Leave was a vote to end free movement. This was the defined position
whether you were in favour of freedom of movement or not, you KNEW a vote to Remain was a vote to keep free movement. This was the defined position

whether you wanted to end membership of the single market or stay a member you KNEW a vote to Leave was to no longer be a member of it. This was the defined position
whether you wanted to end membership of the single market or stay a member you KNEW a vote to Remain was to be a member of it. This was the defined position

whether you wanted to remain under the ECJ or leave its clutches you KNEW a vote to Leave was to end its primacy. This was the defined position.
whether you wanted to remain under the ECJ or leave its clutches you KNEW a vote to Remain was to stay a part of it. This was the defined position.

Leave won
There is 100% DEFINITELY a mandate to Leave the ECJ, End membership of the single market and stop free movement.

This is not hard or soft Brexit. It was always known as simply Brexit
people had differing views on every topic but they KNEW what the vote meant on either side and what the consequences were

its quite pathetic the way you are trying to dissect and unpick the vote the way you are.......and a little bit desperate.

I think one thing about the voting intentions, you think another. I believe I'm right but accept I could be wrong. You are certain you are right and know I'm a desperate and pathetic nitpicker. Your pedestal is so high you probably need oxygen.

Pavilionaire · Oct 18, 2016

pastafarian said:
no
its indicative that remoaners (not the same as remainers) will invent any old crap to try and overturn the vote

Are you saying that everyone who voted LEAVE was crystal clear that meant exiting the Single Market completely, so REMAIN invented a term to describe a group that doesn't exist?

BigGully · Oct 18, 2016

Pavilionaire said:
The very fact we have the terms "Hard Brexit" and "Soft Brexit" is indicative that the Leave campaign was NOT crystal clear about the manner in which it planned to exit the EU.

Oh come on, Soft Brexit is just the Remain camps preferred model which is actually not really leaving it whilst the term Hard Brexit is again Remainers pointing and sneering at those voters that had the audacity to vote to leave.

We are out of it, get over it ..........................

beorhthelm · Oct 18, 2016

Pavilionaire said:
The very fact we have the terms "Hard Brexit" and "Soft Brexit" is indicative that the Leave campaign was NOT crystal clear about the manner in which it planned to exit the EU.

nor the remain. the bottom line is that we want to renegotiate our agreement with the EU, that's a definite from the result (on those terms, how many remainers might have switched?). the EU dont renegotiate, so the only option provided is to leave and enter a process of negotiating new relationship, terms and conditions.

pastafarian · Oct 18, 2016

Lincoln Imp said:
I think one thing about the voting intentions, you think another. I believe I'm right but accept I could be wrong. You are certain you are right and know I'm a desperate and pathetic nitpicker. Your pedestal is so high you probably need oxygen.

The remain camp was very very clear before the vote
they believed voting to leave with the consequences of ending free movement, ending membership of the single market and removing ourselves from the ECJ was a bad bad idea
leavers thought otherwise.

what cant you grasp about this.

Got something to say or just want fewer pesky ads? Join us... 😊

[Politics] Brexit

If there was a second Brexit referendum how would you vote?

Remain

Leave

Wouldn’t vote

Well-known member

A. Virgo, Football Genius

Well-known member

A. Virgo, Football Genius

Wunt be druv

Silly old bat

Banned

Silly old bat

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Banned

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

A. Virgo, Football Genius

Well-known member

Share this page