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Mark Duggan - BBC documentary



Bring back Bryan wade!!

I wanna caravan for me ma
Jun 28, 2010
4,315
Hassocks
Fascinating watch just now on BBC also very emotional at times. Will be interesting to see the outcome of the families appeal when it happens.
 


Durlston

"Garlic bread!?"
NSC Patreon
Jul 15, 2009
9,762
Haywards Heath
I felt really sorry for the taxi driver when Duggan was shot dead. Poor bloke. He'd done nothing wrong and was caught in the chaos. If he looked the wrong way the police were going to shoot him!

Duggan was a complete wrong 'un. I'm glad the BBC showed the programme in the depths of winter though. I'd feel very uneasy if I was around north east London tonight. Very controversial programme about the conflicting statements from the police.
 


sjamesb3466

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2009
5,182
Leicester
Mark Duggan: Lawful Killing

Very interesting programme tonight but if anything it has solidified my belief that the police had reasonable grounds to open fire. The family themselves did not deny that he was meeting a known criminal/gun supplier and that he may have carried guns at some point yet he was supposedly not a criminal and just a bit of a womanising party boy.

For me I do not have any issue with the police opening fire on anyone willing to carry or transport illegal gun if they have reasonable grounds to suspect that they or anyone else is under any threat.

The most worrying issue in this documentary for me was the black communities relationship with the police. This needs repairing as nobody interviewed had an trust or respect for the police. I do understand that the black community feel victimised by the police but for me they need to be pointing the finger of blame at the criminals within their community that are making the police have to use stop and search to protect themselves and tackle gun/knife crime rather than blaming the police for attempting to tackle the results of such criminality.

Very sad times in so many of our inner cities
 


HCxUK

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2014
814
I just cannot get my head around how it can be viewed as a lawful killing when the gun was found so far away, over a fence from where he was shot.
 


Bring back Bryan wade!!

I wanna caravan for me ma
Jun 28, 2010
4,315
Hassocks
I felt really sorry for the taxi driver when Duggan was shot dead. Poor bloke. He'd done nothing wrong and was caught in the chaos. If he looked the wrong way the police were going to shoot him!

Duggan was a complete wrong 'un. I'm glad the BBC showed the programme in the depths of winter though. I'd feel very uneasy if I was around north east London tonight. Very controversial programme about the conflicting statements from the police.

Couldn't agree more the police treatment of the taxi driver was disgusting. Almost as if there was something they did not want him to see....
 




edna krabappel

Well-known member
NSC Patreon
Jul 7, 2003
47,228
I just cannot get my head around how it can be viewed as a lawful killing when the gun was found so far away, over a fence from where he was shot.

You don't think a person can lob a gun over a fence then?
 


Bring back Bryan wade!!

I wanna caravan for me ma
Jun 28, 2010
4,315
Hassocks
You don't think a person can lob a gun over a fence then?

The forensic expert explained in detail how it would have been nigh on impossible for that to have happened based on where he was shot and how his body shape would have been when the bullets struck.
 






edna krabappel

Well-known member
NSC Patreon
Jul 7, 2003
47,228
Righto.
 




Durlston

"Garlic bread!?"
NSC Patreon
Jul 15, 2009
9,762
Haywards Heath
Even if he did throw the gun away, was the decision to shoot him really the last resort?

He was such a dangerous criminal that tasering him might not have been enough. He knew that Trident were on to him long before he got out of the car.
 




HCxUK

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2014
814
He was such a dangerous criminal that tasering him might not have been enough. He knew that Trident were on to him long before he got out of the car.

He was supposedly the 48th most dangerous man in Britain yet he only had two minor offences, possession of cannabis and possession of stolen goods. What intelligence suggested he was that dangerous?
 


Bring back Bryan wade!!

I wanna caravan for me ma
Jun 28, 2010
4,315
Hassocks
The most bizarre aspect of the case that I was unaware of until tonight was the fact that 2 different police officers separately claimed to have found the gun. Also pretty disgusting that the police did not visit the parents to report the death and they found out via news reports on the tele.
 


Bry Nylon

Test your smoke alarm
Helpful Moderator
Jul 21, 2003
19,781
Playing snooker
If you choose to carry guns or associate with those who supply guns then you have nobody to blame but yourself if at some point you encounter armed police officers. At that point, all bets are off.
 




sjamesb3466

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2009
5,182
Leicester
Even if he did throw the gun away, was the decision to shoot him really the last resort?

What you have to ask yourself is the following. Was this individual suspected or known to be in possession of a firearm. Yes. Was the victim surrendering to police. No. Was the victim behaving in a manner that could risk harm/injury to the public/police or themselves. This is the only question that is under scrutiny and the only people that know the answer are the officers that surrounded and shot Mark Duggan. From what I have seen he was shown to have one hand in his pocket and one hand drawing something from his coat. I don't believe it was a weapon as I think he threw it from the taxi before exiting the vehicle however if he was taking out a mobile phone or looked to be drawing a weapon the police had every right to open fire. These are split second decisions and if the officer had not taken the shot and Duggan had produced a weapon he could have fired and killed himself in an instant. If you don't get involved with gun crime you are highly unlikely to be shot by anyone let alone the police.
 


sjamesb3466

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2009
5,182
Leicester
I felt really sorry for the taxi driver when Duggan was shot dead. Poor bloke. He'd done nothing wrong and was caught in the chaos. If he looked the wrong way the police were going to shoot him!

Duggan was a complete wrong 'un. I'm glad the BBC showed the programme in the depths of winter though. I'd feel very uneasy if I was around north east London tonight. Very controversial programme about the conflicting statements from the police.

I do and don't have sympathy for the taxi driver.

I do because as you say he did nothing wrong however his complaint that he was treated a bit rough by police and treated like a criminal is a bit odd. The police have to treat him as an associate or accessory until proven otherwise. It wouldn't look good if they shot Duggan dead and the taxi driver who Duggan could have given a gun to 5 seconds earlier is ushered away from the scene no questions asked and told to get home for dinner taking a major part of the investigation with him. Secondly, for all they know he is a gang member too and a threat to the public and police.
 


NooBHA

Well-known member
Jan 13, 2015
8,584
I found it difficult to form a conclusive opinion on it. I found it difficult to form a conclusive opinion on the lad himself; however I had no problem forming an opinion on the police who took part in it - And the opinion I did form was borne out by one of the last statements in the programme where they stated that the Officer who shot him stands by his decision to have shot him. How he can have that stance even after it was confirmed he was not holding a gun beggars belief.

If he had said ''In hindsight my decision was incorrect but at the time I thought it was the correct decision'' I could have accepted that.
 


portlock seagull

Why? Why us?
Jul 28, 2003
16,979
I think you generally reduce your chances of being shot by the Police if you're not a known gun carrying criminal that hangs out with similar types with no respect for any authority and your first thought is confrontation all the time. Even if you did, you don't deserve to die at the hands of police (who are then near equally put through the same stress for trying to protect the public). However it's not a perfect world (key point) so I don't sail that close to the wind just in case. Bit like walking through an area where gangster types hang out, because, ironically, I might get shot by one of the hoodies the police are trying to disarm I.e. You reduce your chances by not doing.

This advice is free and should stop any posters wondering how best to avoid getting shot by either police or armed gangs from doing so.
 




portlock seagull

Why? Why us?
Jul 28, 2003
16,979
I found it difficult to form a conclusive opinion on it. I found it difficult to form a conclusive opinion on the lad himself; however I had no problem forming an opinion on the police who took part in it - And the opinion I did form was borne out by one of the last statements in the programme where they stated that the Officer who shot him stands by his decision to have shot him. How he can have that stance even after it was confirmed he was not holding a gun beggars belief.

If he had said ''In hindsight my decision was incorrect but at the time I thought it was the correct decision'' I could have accepted that.

Bit naive. Lawyers were sharpening their blades etc. Almost got to stand by initial statements because of financial implications. That's almost or possibly a greater consideration than truth or right verdict in today's society. But that's the mess we've made of the Law so it doesn't surprise me. Beyond reasonable doubt. Beyond...
 


Baldseagull

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2012
10,869
Crawley
I found it difficult to form a conclusive opinion on it. I found it difficult to form a conclusive opinion on the lad himself; however I had no problem forming an opinion on the police who took part in it - And the opinion I did form was borne out by one of the last statements in the programme where they stated that the Officer who shot him stands by his decision to have shot him. How he can have that stance even after it was confirmed he was not holding a gun beggars belief.

If he had said ''In hindsight my decision was incorrect but at the time I thought it was the correct decision'' I could have accepted that.

Aside from not wanting to admit to an error of judgement, the officer may be stating, not that he would decide to shoot with all the knowledge he has now, but that he acted correctly with all the information he had at the time.
I saw some research into Police shootings in the US and how often the statements of officers do not match up with what the forensic evidence says. However, the conclusion of people studying various events, was not that officers were deliberately covering things up, but that the speed and high stress of the situations cause gaps in perception.
In one case an Officer shot a man twice that he had said was advancing upon him, yet forensics showed one entry wound in his arm and another in his back. It was later proven that the man had indeed been advancing on the officer, span when the first round hit him in the arm, causing the second round to hit him in the back. The officer could not perceive that the first round spun him, and remained convinced that he rotated after he had fired the second round.
 



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