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General Election 2015



Simster

Simster

"the man's an arse"
Jul 7, 2003
54,244
Surrey
I'll be honest - the more I read of Cunning Fergus, the more I like what he has to say. I'm still struggling to square the idea that we should abandon the whole EU project though.

Stato said:
It is not possible to control the labour market on a national basis. The failure of Stalinism proved this.
Click to expand...
Oh, and this bit is total nonsense. Stalinism was more concerned with the planning the whole economy than with protecting the proletariat from a race to the bottom with regards to the labour market. Everybody knows that.
 




Westdene Seagull

Westdene Seagull

aka Cap'n Carl Firecrotch
NSC Patron
Oct 27, 2003
21,086
The arse end of Hangleton
Simster said:
I'll be honest - the more I read of Cunning Fergus, the more I like what he has to say. I'm still struggling to square the idea that we should abandon the whole EU project though.
Click to expand...

Just to push you towards that squaring, have a look at the government expenditure in December just gone and see how CMD and the EU colluded to pull the wool over UK voters eyes !
 


Simster

Simster

"the man's an arse"
Jul 7, 2003
54,244
Surrey
Westdene Seagull said:
Just to push you towards that squaring, have a look at the government expenditure in December just gone and see how CMD and the EU colluded to pull the wool over UK voters eyes !
Click to expand...

But I wouldn't vote for CMD so I don't need to do that. And anyway, I struggle to look beyond the total tosspot running UKIP and the larger-than-average band of casual racists amongst UKIPs support.

Ultimately I quite admire the underhand way the French have circumnavigated EU rules (using underhand methods of enforcing domestic protectionism) and consequently managed to keep their car industry in place. I don't think we'd even be having this discussion about the EU if we'd done something similar ourselves back in the 70s and 80s.
 


R

ROSM

Well-known member
Dec 26, 2005
6,241
Just far enough away from LDC
Simster said:
But I wouldn't vote for CMD so I don't need to do that. And anyway, I struggle to look beyond the total tosspot running UKIP and the larger-than-average band of casual racists amongst UKIPs support.

Ultimately I quite admire the underhand way the French have circumnavigated EU rules (using underhand methods of enforcing domestic protectionism) and consequently managed to keep their car industry in place. I don't think we'd even be having this discussion about the EU if we'd done something similar ourselves back in the 70s and 80s.
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I agree [MENTION=232]Simster[/MENTION]

If various governments in the 70s and 80s spent less time arguing amongst themselves about whether to be pro or anti European and more.time evolving policies to get the most out of the relationship then we may, too, have achieved that.
 


Stato

Stato

Well-known member
Dec 21, 2011
6,607
Simster said:
I'll be honest - the more I read of Cunning Fergus, the more I like what he has to say. I'm still struggling to square the idea that we should abandon the whole EU project though.

Oh, and this bit is total nonsense. Stalinism was more concerned with the planning the whole economy than with protecting the proletariat from a race to the bottom with regards to the labour market. Everybody knows that.
Click to expand...

My point was simply that Stalin thought that he could compete internationally through controlling the means of production in the USSR. He couldn't, because capital knows no national boundaries. This has become even more evident with the advance of communications technology. If we were to set up the perfect socialist state in the UK giving every right that we would wish for all classes it would fail, because capitalists would simply shift their capital somewhere else in the world where the lack of rights made labour cheaper. Socialism has to be international, because its opponent is international.
 




D

Deleted member 22389

Guest
Honestly what did Labour create for us by initially opening our borders to workers from within the EU, and not having proper border controls for people coming from outside the EU?
What's changed for British people, and are we any better off?

We are not better off, it's just resulted in more competition for our jobs, poorer wages and working conditions because employeers and agencies can get away with it, and everywhere we live has got just got busier because of the stupid housing bubble in London has forced people to look elsewhere for property or the government has pushed people out of the area where they can find cheaper rents because there is not enough money.

NHS is struggling because not enough money has been put in, it is also struggling because more people are using it, not helped because of an increase in immigration in the first place.
 
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Stato

Stato

Well-known member
Dec 21, 2011
6,607
Simster said:
But I wouldn't vote for CMD so I don't need to do that. And anyway, I struggle to look beyond the total tosspot running UKIP and the larger-than-average band of casual racists amongst UKIPs support.

Ultimately I quite admire the underhand way the French have circumnavigated EU rules (using underhand methods of enforcing domestic protectionism) and consequently managed to keep their car industry in place. I don't think we'd even be having this discussion about the EU if we'd done something similar ourselves back in the 70s and 80s.
Click to expand...

Your point about our approach to the EU is interesting. I was told by someone who represented another country at meetings at the EU that the British tactics towards Europe have often been counter-productive. She referenced points where her country and Britain had similar reservations about conflicts between European and national interests. British representatives would approach in a bullish way saying 'This absolutely cannot be allowed to happen' at which point their counterparts would dig their heels in and just outvote the British. Her country's reps, would tell the rest of the meeting that they wanted to make this work, but would struggle to sell certain parts back home. They would be given concessions to ensure their support.
 


Westdene Seagull

Westdene Seagull

aka Cap'n Carl Firecrotch
NSC Patron
Oct 27, 2003
21,086
The arse end of Hangleton
Stato said:
Your point about our approach to the EU is interesting. I was told by someone who represented another country at meetings at the EU that the British tactics towards Europe have often been counter-productive. She referenced points where her country and Britain had similar reservations about conflicts between European and national interests. British representatives would approach in a bullish way saying 'This absolutely cannot be allowed to happen' at which point their counterparts would dig their heels in and just outvote the British. Her country's reps, would tell the rest of the meeting that they wanted to make this work, but would struggle to sell certain parts back home. They would be given concessions to ensure their support.
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Indeed and that is because it is a political plan, a consensus of the political elite, that we should become the US of Europe. Ted Heath admitted it in an interview once he left power. Why should the EU project be "sold" to us ? A mostly unelected organisation who hasn't had it's accounts signed off by auditors for god knows how long now, who believes it is above elected government and who has had elected governments replaced with EUrocratic puppets.
 




D

Deleted member 22389

Guest
I can see it now, the fanfair as Ed Milliband rolls up to Number 10 in the polished Black Jag, standing outside Number 10 delivering his specially prepared One Nation speech. Everyone cheers as the so called nasty party are resigned to the scrap heap for a few years. A month passes under Labour and everyone starts to wonder what they voted for all over again. So it continues, Labour shouting at the Tories, Tories shouting at Labour, the same old lies and predictable crap over and over again. I'm glad I shall be placing my vote somewhere else this time and not following the norm, because like millions of other people I'm bored of the same old parties running my country. Hopefully there will be enough of us one day to make that change.
 


D

DTES

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
6,022
London
bashlsdir said:
I can see it now, the fanfair as Ed Milliband rolls up to Number 10 in the polished Black Jag, standing outside Number 10 delivering his specially prepared One Nation speech. Everyone cheers as the so called nasty party are resigned to the scrap heap for a few years. A month passes under Labour and everyone starts to wonder what they voted for all over again. So it continues, Labour shouting at the Tories, Tories shouting at Labour, the same old lies and predictable crap over and over again. I'm glad I shall be placing my vote somewhere else this time and not following the norm, because like millions of other people I'm bored of the same old parties running my country. Hopefully there will be enough of us one day to make that change.
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I agree. The worst possible results, IMHO, are a majority government for either the Tories or Labour. Don't get me wrong - the Lib Dems have nodded through some pretty awful Tory decisions, but I am absolutely certain that had we instead had a Tory majority government since 2010 things would be a whole lot (even) worse.
 


Herr Tubthumper

Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
59,773
The Fatherland
cunning fergus said:
If anyone wants to help the British working class (or any other working class) then they need to control the labour market.......anyone who doesn't want to do that is either a free market Tory or a smug Marxist ****.
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What do you mean by control? Do you mean worker's rights, conditions etc? Or do you the supply of labour? And if you do mean the supply of labour does it go beyond freedom of movement?
 






spring hall convert

spring hall convert

Well-known member
Nov 3, 2009
9,608
Brighton
Gwylan said:
Unless lots of the Tory voters opt for UKIP.

Brighton Kemptown could be very interesting
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One of the most interesting seats in the whole election. The Lib Dem vote in 2010, like many across the country was increased by disaffected Labour voters seduced by Clegg, they polled 17%, you would expect that to reduce to single figures, I reckon it will be half. Now will that c. 8-9% go straight back to Labour or will they be seduced by the Greens?

On top of that many people wrongly assume that UKIP won't hold much appeal in Brighton. However, the Kemptown seat includes Rottingdean, Woodingdean, Peacehaven and Saltdean where UKIP have taken votes from the Tories in council/ European elections. In addition, can UKIP eat into Labour votes in Whitehawk and Moulscoombe?

I think it's a Tory hold that is likely to buck nationwide trends as the Greens pick up lapsed Liberal and long time Labour voters.
 


C

cunning fergus

Well-known member
Jan 18, 2009
4,747
Stato said:
The 'undeniable evidence' is something you mention, but have not provided.

I have read the transcript previously. Duffy raised no points of fact, just prejudice. Brown apologised because, in politics, nobody seeking election can be seen as criticising a member of the electorate even when they deserve it. However she is one person, not the entire working class.

I have said nowhere that the British working class need punishment, just that a lot of them wouldn't vote for Labour until it abandoned socialism.

It is not possible to control the labour market on a national basis. The failure of Stalinism proved this.

Its the violent reaction and personal insults that made me wonder about the direction you are coming from in the first place. It is possible to address points without abusing the person making the point.
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The academic and empirical evidence that migration has affected the wages of the working class is overwhelming, it is less so for the middle and upper classes. Plus ca change.

http://global.oup.com/uk/pressreleases/32402029/

You are not alone on this board with your commitment to the progression of the interests of the international working class at the expense of their British counterparts, which begs the question why you support Labour as oppose to the Greens? The Greens have an unequivocal Marxist ideology which they are working to phase out British national identity (see NY300). This must be right up your boulevard, the Labour Party wouldn’t dare publicly support such a policy or concept.

http://policy.greenparty.org.uk/ny.html

If you consider Mrs Duffy’s comments to be “prejudice“ its little wonder you hold the British working class out to be racist, in fact you are the first person I have had an exchange with that has defended Brown. The irony is of course you don’t recognise the contempt (or should I say prejudice) that Brown had for the genuine working class…………actually you do, but you only want to see bigotry through your own distorted paradigm.

Really you think so? So, how many countries (outside the EU) can I get to tomorrow and without a visa, criminal record check or a basic by-you-leave can and start working on Monday? The US is the most capitalist country in the world yet they control their labour market. The Mexicans may not think so, but then that is what happens when you have a poor country next to a rich country.

Calling you out as a tory is not an insult if it’s true………………..beyond the obvious wolfie smith policies you also support free market capitalism courtesy of the EU, I can’t square that outlook with traditional socialism. It's an irony that in Greece Syzria are on the brink of power, and they and the Greek electorate have already had shots across their bows from the ECB et al. You should be outraged, yet not a peep.

Tell me this, when we had the referendums on the EEC in the 70s, what side of the argument did support Thatcher, in or out?
 




Stato

Stato

Well-known member
Dec 21, 2011
6,607
cunning fergus said:
The academic and empirical evidence that migration has affected the wages of the working class is overwhelming, it is less so for the middle and upper classes. Plus ca change.

http://global.oup.com/uk/pressreleases/32402029/

You are not alone on this board with your commitment to the progression of the interests of the international working class at the expense of their British counterparts, which begs the question why you support Labour as oppose to the Greens? The Greens have an unequivocal Marxist ideology which they are working to phase out British national identity (see NY300). This must be right up your boulevard, the Labour Party wouldn’t dare publicly support such a policy or concept.

http://policy.greenparty.org.uk/ny.html

If you consider Mrs Duffy’s comments to be “prejudice“ its little wonder you hold the British working class out to be racist, in fact you are the first person I have had an exchange with that has defended Brown. The irony is of course you don’t recognise the contempt (or should I say prejudice) that Brown had for the genuine working class…………actually you do, but you only want to see bigotry through your own distorted paradigm.

Really you think so? So, how many countries (outside the EU) can I get to tomorrow and without a visa, criminal record check or a basic by-you-leave can and start working on Monday? The US is the most capitalist country in the world yet they control their labour market. The Mexicans may not think so, but then that is what happens when you have a poor country next to a rich country.

Calling you out as a tory is not an insult if it’s true………………..beyond the obvious wolfie smith policies you also support free market capitalism courtesy of the EU, I can’t square that outlook with traditional socialism. It's an irony that in Greece Syzria are on the brink of power, and they and the Greek electorate have already had shots across their bows from the ECB et al. You should be outraged, yet not a peep.

Tell me this, when we had the referendums on the EEC in the 70s, what side of the argument did support Thatcher, in or out?
Click to expand...

I think I have been quite open about my political views, and you have picked them apart, labelling me a free market supporting Marxist, whatever that might be. However, I don't feel that the same degree of openness has been reciprocated. Would you be happy to answer one question honestly? In all elections where I have qualified to vote, national and local, I have voted Labour. I have voted for Lib Dem and Green candidates in local elections where I had more than one vote. How have you voted in the past?
 


M

Machiavelli

Well-known member
Oct 11, 2013
16,705
Fiveways
cunning fergus said:
The academic and empirical evidence that migration has affected the wages of the working class is overwhelming, it is less so for the middle and upper classes. Plus ca change.

http://global.oup.com/uk/pressreleases/32402029/

You are not alone on this board with your commitment to the progression of the interests of the international working class at the expense of their British counterparts, which begs the question why you support Labour as oppose to the Greens? The Greens have an unequivocal Marxist ideology which they are working to phase out British national identity (see NY300). This must be right up your boulevard, the Labour Party wouldn’t dare publicly support such a policy or concept.

http://policy.greenparty.org.uk/ny.html

If you consider Mrs Duffy’s comments to be “prejudice“ its little wonder you hold the British working class out to be racist, in fact you are the first person I have had an exchange with that has defended Brown. The irony is of course you don’t recognise the contempt (or should I say prejudice) that Brown had for the genuine working class…………actually you do, but you only want to see bigotry through your own distorted paradigm.

Really you think so? So, how many countries (outside the EU) can I get to tomorrow and without a visa, criminal record check or a basic by-you-leave can and start working on Monday? The US is the most capitalist country in the world yet they control their labour market. The Mexicans may not think so, but then that is what happens when you have a poor country next to a rich country.

Calling you out as a tory is not an insult if it’s true………………..beyond the obvious wolfie smith policies you also support free market capitalism courtesy of the EU, I can’t square that outlook with traditional socialism. It's an irony that in Greece Syzria are on the brink of power, and they and the Greek electorate have already had shots across their bows from the ECB et al. You should be outraged, yet not a peep.

Tell me this, when we had the referendums on the EEC in the 70s, what side of the argument did support Thatcher, in or out?
Click to expand...

How many of these words do you actually understand?
 


Westdene Seagull

Westdene Seagull

aka Cap'n Carl Firecrotch
NSC Patron
Oct 27, 2003
21,086
The arse end of Hangleton
Machiavelli said:
How many of these words do you actually understand?
Click to expand...

To be fair, they have no idea how to balance a budget given their recent statements so they are certainly on the way to being marxist.
 










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