[Politics] Brexit

cunning fergus · Jan 15, 2019

vegster said:
I'd find it very odd if the EU became anti workers and consumer rights and against what is ethicly correct. You should remember how various Tory governments have sought, and obtained, opt outs for various workers rights that they thought were bad for business.

Not bad for workers, but bad for business you notice?
The whole Brexit ethos is that we leave and " cut the shackles " that are allegedly holding us back, you know, fair treatment for workers, food and products grown and made to high standards that consumers can trust?
So, by leaving, workers rights, such as they are, will further be eroded by Tory governments at every at every
opportunity in order to be competitive.

Or, as a big player,by size in Europe, we lead by being constructive by having MEP's who actually turn up and contribute to debate.

If you were right politicains like Macron would be despised by pro EU supporters, but he isn’t, he is the poster boy for the EU and further integration.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...s-on-french-unions-to-cut-rail-workers-rights

He is an ex Rothschilds banker that is taking an axe to French workers rights (amongst other grievances) which has unlocked the jilet gaune movement. You can continue to deceive yourself that the EU is run by trade unionists and socialists, but it’s not. It’s run by Tories with Rothschilds and Goldman Sachs.

Kinky Gerbil · Jan 15, 2019

The Clamp said:
With a few not unreasonable turns we could very soon be rid of May, rid of Brexit and the gathered mob can have a little riot and smash some stuff up, which is all they really want to do anyway. I don't want to get anyone's hopes up here but guys, we may all just get what we want out of this after all.

I’m sure the 20/30 people who will riot will be swiftly arrested.

cunning fergus · Jan 15, 2019

Mental Lental said:
I advocate a very simple requirement for being allowed into the voting booth......A GCSE grade C or above (or O level) in English.

That isn't exactly a high bar but would at least allow us to stop the absolutely thick as pig shit from voting against their best interests.

How about limiting it to those who have contributed to HMRC based on a percentage of their working life and/or are net tax payers?

cunning fergus · Jan 15, 2019

Baldseagull said:
But would you be happy with a differently structured EU?

I think the horse has bolted on that one, as I could never be happy with an EU that is essentially another layer of Government that has the level of authority and influence it has and which all has to be paid for. None of this was explained to the U.K. electorate in 74, but has happened treaty by treaty over the decades since with U.K. politicians of all flavours telling us it would not affect us.

One idea I liked many years ago was from Jack Straw who advocated a process where the HoC (along with other countries Parliaments) sent a team of MPs (based on the results of the election) to deal with the business that is now dealt with by the Commission and European Parliament. This was a way to democratise the decisions made.

I would expect these policy decisions to be limited, the EU is involved in way too much now, it’s not the trading block we joined in 74. There’s the problem, too many people are now employed and make great money via the EU (look at the warnings on corruption given to Romania about their presidency). If this day to day shit was known as clearly as we know how U.K. politicians operate we wouldn’t touch the EU with a barge pole.

cunning fergus · Jan 15, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
The wording on the Referendum pamphlet in 1975.

http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm

Nothing about freedom of movement, expansion of the EU to 28 countries or the single currency, which is strange because Heath knew this was on the agenda as he had discussed it with Pompidou and it was on the first Common Market meeting we attended following Parliaments decision to join in 74.

I guess that means the detail on the pamphlet are not worth a light, after all the one we got 2 years ago said Parliament would respect the outcome.

Thunder Bolt · Jan 15, 2019

cunning fergus said:
Nothing about freedom of movement, expansion of the EU to 28 countries or the single currency, which is strange because Heath knew this was on the agenda as he had discussed it with Pompidou and it was on the first Common Market meeting we attended following Parliaments decision to join in 74.

I guess that means the detail on the pamphlet are not worth a light, after all the one we got 2 years ago said Parliament would respect the outcome.

You are confirming that we knew that in 1974.

attila · Jan 15, 2019

So on the eve of a doomed parliamentary vote brought into being by a ludicrous referendum which should never have taken place, I say simply this.

There was one party which foisted this nightmare on the country - the Tories - aided and abetted by 40 years of luridly xenophobic headlines in the right wing press. No, I’m not forgetting UKIP. They were Tories all along and are back in their old stamping grounds now, metaphorically stamping on the poor, disabled and sick, many enjoying their last quivers of pleasure as they watch the new, openly fascist UKIP do the stomping literally.

They inflicted the referendum on us with the aim of bringing their internal civil war to an end and succeeded only in inflicting it on us all.

It’s all a load of bollocks. The first thing we need to do is stop arguing about Brexit and concentrate on the real issue - the unspeakable extremes of poverty and wealth in this country. Everything else flows from that.

I’m not a Brexiteer or a Remainer.
Bollocks to the EU, bollocks to leaving it.
BOLLOCKS TO BREXIT. The whole, pointless clusterfck.

Westdene Seagull · Jan 15, 2019

attila said:
I’m not a Brexiteer or a Remainer.
Bollocks to the EU, bollocks to leaving it.
BOLLOCKS TO BREXIT. The whole, pointless clusterfck.

Think you've let yourself down on this one - not nearly as good as your previous poems ....... for god's sake man, it doesn't even rhyme !

cunning fergus · Jan 15, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
You are confirming that we knew that in 1974.

No, I am saying Heath knew the direction of travel, but this was not shared with the electorate (or the majority of his cabinet).

So you see, the whole point of entry for the UK into what is now the EU was born out of a lie, then for years and years sucessive politicians said that there would never be integrated EU, then came Masstricht and the euro, then Lisbon which created the orgsns of Govt which Labour said we would get a referendum on but we didnt, the we had EU expansion and were told that only 15,000 Poles would come.

In 2016 we were told by another generation of politicains to vote leave or remain.......the result would be respected and implemented.

Lies.......if only they could fund the NHS.

The Merry Prankster · Jan 15, 2019

Mental Lental said:
Unfortunately it isn't just senile old mid-landers. I had last August off and spent most of it with my mum in Upper Beeding. One quiet afternoon I went for a mini pub crawl along the main high street in Steyning which seems to be silly old codger Brexit central town. Abandoned copies of the Express adorned many a table and I overheard many a nationalistic pro-Brexit conversation in many of the pubs. Most of them were agreeing that it was the Germans "up to their old tricks" again and that the EU was just the 4th Reich under a different name. You literally can't argue with people that hold deeply entrenched views at that level of delusionality.

I actually think that a large percentage of the leave vote was made up of people in this "reliving the war" demographic. I also think that this group on hearing about the cancelling of Brexit would do no more than go down their local pub and grumble quietly into their pints of mild. It's hard to imagine any of them "taking to the streets" in protest when most of them would struggle to get to the bus stop.

Herr Tubthumper said:
It’s a shame people like this exist. But if they are able to pass my electoral exam they will be entitled to vote.

I think you are both completely wrong. If there is one good thing that comes out of this godforsaken mess it might be that we start considering the idea of inclusion. Everyones voice and vote is as valid as the next mans. The whole FBPE/PV movement reeks to high heaven of "I did everything right,I was good at school, I'm educated, I'm informed, I've done well at work. They told me if I did that I could have everything AND now I'm thwarted by these lesser beings WHO absolutely shouldn't count as much as me. Maybe they should have 5/8ths of a vote or something"

Thunder Bolt · Jan 15, 2019

cunning fergus said:
No, I am saying Heath knew the direction of travel, but this was not shared with the electorate (or the majority of his cabinet).

So you see, the whole point of entry for the UK into what is now the EU was born out of a lie, then for years and years sucessive politicians said that there would never be integrated EU, then came Masstricht and the euro, then Lisbon which created the orgsns of Govt which Labour said we would get a referendum on but we didnt, the we had EU expansion and were told that only 15,000 Poles would come.

In 2016 we were told by another generation of politicains to vote leave or remain.......the result would be respected and implemented.

Lies.......if only they could fund the NHS.

The Telegraph disagrees.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion...d-to-when-we-joined-the-eu-we-knew-what-we-w/

The Tories are deliberately running down the NHS so they can privatise it. That much is very obvious.

Thunder Bolt · Jan 15, 2019

Mental Lental said:
Unfortunately it isn't just senile old mid-landers. I had last August off and spent most of it with my mum in Upper Beeding. One quiet afternoon I went for a mini pub crawl along the main high street in Steyning which seems to be silly old codger Brexit central town. Abandoned copies of the Express adorned many a table and I overheard many a nationalistic pro-Brexit conversation in many of the pubs. Most of them were agreeing that it was the Germans "up to their old tricks" again and that the EU was just the 4th Reich under a different name. You literally can't argue with people that hold deeply entrenched views at that level of delusionality.

I actually think that a large percentage of the leave vote was made up of people in this "reliving the war" demographic. I also think that this group on hearing about the cancelling of Brexit would do no more than go down their local pub and grumble quietly into their pints of mild. It's hard to imagine any of them "taking to the streets" in protest when most of them would struggle to get to the bus stop.

Funnily enough, the very old people in their late 90s are all for Europe and the peace the EU brings, and agreeing with Winston Churchill. The ones who actually fought or took part in the war.

It's the 70 and 80 year olds that are Brexiteers.

A1X · Jan 15, 2019

cunning fergus said:
No, I am saying Heath knew the direction of travel, but this was not shared with the electorate (or the majority of his cabinet).

So you see, the whole point of entry for the UK into what is now the EU was born out of a lie, then for years and years sucessive politicians said that there would never be integrated EU, then came Masstricht and the euro, then Lisbon which created the orgsns of Govt which Labour said we would get a referendum on but we didnt, the we had EU expansion and were told that only 15,000 Poles would come.

In 2016 we were told by another generation of politicains to vote leave or remain.......the result would be respected and implemented.

Lies.......if only they could fund the NHS.

I mean the Treaty of Rome basically spells everything out, dates from 1950 and is something the UK signed up to. So the idea Britain didn't know what it was getting into is frankly ludicrous.

Garry Nelson's teacher · Jan 15, 2019

A1X said:
I mean the Treaty of Rome basically spells everything out, dates from 1950 and is something the UK signed up to. So the idea Britain didn't know what it was getting into is frankly ludicrous.

Indeed:
We are being reminded that members of the EU have to obey the four freedoms, the freedom of movement of capital, people, goods and service provision.
These should come as no surprise to us, as they were in the original Treaty of Rome. They are not some new addition from more recent federalising treaties

Author: John Redwood!

Simster · Jan 15, 2019

attila said:
So on the eve of a doomed parliamentary vote brought into being by a ludicrous referendum which should never have taken place, I say simply this.

There was one party which foisted this nightmare on the country - the Tories - aided and abetted by 40 years of luridly xenophobic headlines in the right wing press. No, I’m not forgetting UKIP. They were Tories all along and are back in their old stamping grounds now, metaphorically stamping on the poor, disabled and sick, many enjoying their last quivers of pleasure as they watch the new, openly fascist UKIP do the stomping literally.

They inflicted the referendum on us with the aim of bringing their internal civil war to an end and succeeded only in inflicting it on us all.

It’s all a load of bollocks. The first thing we need to do is stop arguing about Brexit and concentrate on the real issue - the unspeakable extremes of poverty and wealth in this country. Everything else flows from that.

I’m not a Brexiteer or a Remainer.
Bollocks to the EU, bollocks to leaving it.
BOLLOCKS TO BREXIT. The whole, pointless clusterfck.

I agree with most of that. If there was any justice, we'd have an electable centrist alternative and the Tories wouldn't be anywhere near government for the appalling mess they've made of the country. The Lib Dems were cast out for considerably less than this f*cking shambles.

I'm a remainer and genuinely find myself torn between either wishing a) Brexit would fall apart for the good of the economy and nation, and b) and respecting a vote that I believe will do untold damage and was built on lies for the good of democracy.

Either way, we're all losers here.

maltaseagull · Jan 15, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
Funnily enough, the very old people in their late 90s are all for Europe and the peace the EU brings, and agreeing with Winston Churchill. The ones who actually fought or took part in the war.

It's the 70 and 80 year olds that are Brexiteers.

I am sure you have all the data to support this.
Perhaps you could share it ?

Deleted member 2719 · Jan 15, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
The Telegraph disagrees.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion...d-to-when-we-joined-the-eu-we-knew-what-we-w/

The Tories are deliberately running down the NHS so they can privatise it. That much is very obvious.

Labour supporters have been banging that one out for decades to get votes and guess what they have not privatised it.

The Clamp · Jan 15, 2019

Mouldy Boots said:
Labour supporters have been banging that one out for decades to get votes and guess what they have not privatised it.

Actually, you need to do some research and you’ll discover many areas of the NHS are privatised.

Mellor 3 Ward 4 · Jan 15, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
It's the 70 and 80 year olds that are Brexiteers.

Nothing like a sweeping generalisation is there?

My mother in law is 82 - voted to remain.
My son is 20 something - voted to leave.

neilbard · Jan 15, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
Funnily enough, the very old people in their late 90s are all for Europe and the peace the EU brings, and agreeing with Winston Churchill. The ones who actually fought or took part in the war.

It's the 70 and 80 year olds that are Brexiteers.

Likewise you could say 25 and 35 yr olds are Brexiteers or you could say 70 and 80 yr olds are Remainers. :shrug:

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