[Politics] Brexit

bWize · Jul 30, 2018

larus said:
And there, in one simple statement, is where we have the hypocrisy of the Remain side.

Democracy only works if the plebs vote the right way. Yeah - right.

As soon as I saw the Queen wear 'that hat' I knew there was no chance we were leaving. This whole "Tory mess" is just a charade and it's becoming clearer the establishment and powers that be have no intention of leaving.

The Rivet · Jul 30, 2018

bWize said:
As soon as I saw the Queen wear 'that hat' I knew there was no chance we were leaving. This whole "Tory mess" is just a charade and it's becoming clearer the establishment and powers that be have no intention of leaving.

Fantastic! It's like book at bedtime on Radio Four. Mind you there are far better stories told on that media!

Ps I think the tories are the weakest they have been for a while. A saga, hence book at bedtime.... :lolol:

larus · Jul 30, 2018

bWize said:
As soon as I saw the Queen wear 'that hat' I knew there was no chance we were leaving. This whole "Tory mess" is just a charade and it's becoming clearer the establishment and powers that be have no intention of leaving.

I fear you are right. And I also fear what the outcome of this will be.

If there is seen to be a democratic deficit, then this opens up the electorate to extreme parties. Look at the trust which existed in politicians before the referendum - it was pretty low then. No surprise if you look back over the last 20-30 years and the rise in spin over substance. Look at Bliar and Iraq (the lies over WMD and the death of that weapons expert whose name escapes me).

UKIP/Brexit, Trump, NF, far right in Austria, Italy - there is evidence all over the world that populations are getting disillusioned with main-stream political parties who don’t listen.

So those who think that’s it’s great that Leave may be thwarted (as it suits your view), be careful what you wish for and the path it leads us on.

Creaky · Jul 30, 2018

Triggaaar said:
But you know that if all borders were open worldwide, that crime would be uncontrollable right? That's not just an economic motive.

Just to make my personal view clear, I'm not anti-immigration, although ideally I'd like the governments we vote in to be able to control it.

I’m obviously being thick but why would open borders increase crime? Wouldn’t a criminal moving from one country to another decrease crime in one and increase it in another.

Putting that to one side it is very easy for me to be in favour of border controls when I know that there are very few places on the globe that I can’t visit, (apart from the money), if I want to - not something that billions on this planet can say.

larus · Jul 30, 2018

Triggaaar said:
But you know that if all borders were open worldwide, that crime would be uncontrollable right? That's not just an economic motive.

Just to make my personal view clear, I'm not anti-immigration, although ideally I'd like the governments we vote in to be able to control it.

Oh come on Trigaaar. We all know that if you oppose free movement you’re a thick, racist old white ars*hole.

bWize · Jul 30, 2018

The Rivet said:
Fantastic! It's like book at bedtime on Radio Four. Mind you there are far better stories told on that media!

You think all this incompetence and the deliberate delays with no plan or direction nearly 2 years on aren't intentional? It sounds like jackonory is more your thing.

sussex_guy2k2 · Jul 30, 2018

GT49er said:
It certainly does. What gives you the right to invent stats off the top of your head? Or the right to insult your fellow citizens by claiming that 90% of them are too thick (it would obviously apply to both sides, leavers and remainers) to understand "Do you want to remain in the EU or remain in the EU"?

I smell a sense of thwarted entitlement!

It does apply to both sides. And what gives me the right? You mean, as opposed to both the remain and leave campaigners basing their whole campaigns around factual inaccuracies and lies? Yeh... you’ve got me stumped with that one... I guess I learned from our esteemed leadership (of which I include both the left and the right in that).

But you’re right... I’ll rephrase - “90% of the people I spoke to pre-referendum has no idea what they were actually voting for”. And here’s a clue as to why... the vote was open ended. We were voting on something that had no clear outcome or path, no clear journey and no leadership giving it direction... in fact, I’m rephrasing again. “No-one had any idea what they were actually voting for because those leading both the Leave and Remain campaigns also had no idea, which is why they built their campaigns on theory and BS”.

Now get off your high f**king horse and stop pretending you had any idea what you were doing pre-vote.

The Rivet · Jul 30, 2018

bWize said:
You think all this incompetence and the deliberate delays with no plan or direction nearly 2 years on aren't intentional? It sounds like jackonory is more your thing.

Oh yeah Jackonory was great. So was magic roundabout. The wooden tops too...

The Rivet · Jul 30, 2018

sussex_guy2k2 said:
It does apply to both sides. And what gives me the right? You mean, as opposed to both the remain and leave campaigners basing their whole campaigns around factual inaccuracies and lies? Yeh... you’ve got me stumped with that one... I guess I learned from our esteemed leadership (of which I include both the left and the right in that).

But you’re right... I’ll rephrase - “90% of the people I spoke to pre-referendum has no idea what they were actually voting for”. And here’s a clue as to why... the vote was open ended. We were voting on something that had no clear outcome or path, no clear journey and no leadership giving it direction... in fact, I’m rephrasing again. “No-one had any idea what they were actually voting for because those leading both the Leave and Remain campaigns also had no idea, which is why they built their campaigns on theory and BS”.

Now get off your high f**king horse and stop pretending you had any idea what you were doing pre-vote.

Great rant! :flounce:

sussex_guy2k2 · Jul 30, 2018

Mustafa said:
The people who voted to leave the EU, knew full well they were voting to leave the EU. That's what the vote was, that's what we're getting.

This government is appalling, but their mistakes are not permanent... they will be fixed by future governments.

The key thing is that we are leaving the EU. Democracy is not continuously voting until you get a result you want. It's not best out of 3 either.

But isn’t that the point... leaving the EU can mean any number of things. Which one were they voting for? Which one did they want? Which one was being offered?

A second vote would be on what’s now on offer. That’s actual democracy. Offering people something real and finding out what they really want for their country. Not offering them a hypothetical idea, the many consequences and variables of which many are simply ignorant to, either through a lack of education on that particular subject or through a lack of access to information. So I disagree absolutely - if we want real democracy, the people should have a right to vote on what is now a very real offering. Not some hypothetical idea with multiple potential outcomes.

Triggaaar · Jul 30, 2018

Creaky said:
I’m obviously being thick but why would open borders increase crime? Wouldn’t a criminal moving from one country to another decrease crime in one and increase it in another.

Because there is a lot of poverty in a lot of countries, and people would flock to the chance of a better life. Imagine the Mexicans headed for the US, and the Africans and people from the Middle-East headed for Europe etc. With the many millions who just want the chance to work, will be millions who just want to take what they can get.

The Rivet · Jul 30, 2018

sussex_guy2k2 said:
But isn’t that the point... leaving the EU can mean any number of things. Which one were they voting for? Which one did they want? Which one was being offered?

A second vote would be on what’s now on offer. That’s actual democracy. Offering people something real and finding out what they really want for their country. Not offering them a hypothetical idea, the many consequences and variables of which many are simply ignorant to, either through a lack of education on that particular subject or through a lack of access to information. So I disagree absolutely - if we want real democracy, the people should have a right to vote on what is now a very real offering. Not some hypothetical idea with multiple potential outcomes.

Mustafa may eat you for breakfast you condescending end of the litter.

Swillis · Jul 30, 2018

Baldseagull said:
If I missed a part of your post where you stated you were talking about SE London, and not the country as a whole, I apologise.

I would still argue that more people from Europe gave arrived here(England) in the last fifteen years.

Brian Fantana · Jul 30, 2018

For me, the crux of it is this:

1. The vast majority of people before the referendum had no strong feelings either way regarding the EU - a fairly small percentage did on each side of the argument.

2. Virtually no one actually understood what the EU did/does - especially the significance that it has/had in terms continent-wide co-operation in areas such as research, medicine, security, educational opportunities etc.

3. Having the result decided just on a straight majority was absolutely mental, because a close vote either way was always going to cause what we are seeing now. It should have been 2/3 or something like that.

4. If it was better to exist outside the club than inside it, the club wouldn't exist. Deciding to forego our biggest trading partners on the basis that we *might* negotiate deals with other nations is properly mental.

5. The number of Leave voters who did so on the basis of non-white immigration. How many EU countries have a majority of their population made up of non-white people?

astralavi · Jul 30, 2018

This thread escalated quickly, interesting results

The Rivet · Jul 30, 2018

astralavi said:
This thread escalated quickly, interesting results

How do we formulate a synopsis on those results Professor?

Questions · Jul 30, 2018

bWize said:
The whole thing is a mess!

We should have been given all the facts well before the vote. It's the reason I felt I couldn't vote as the details were so vague. I believe in a strong Europe and good relations with our neighbours, but I also think the current EU setup is full of gravy trainers and too much bureaucracy.

My Dad believes their should be a second referendum (he is a staunch remainer) but when I asked him if he thought there should be a 2nd referendum had "remain" won he said "NO" - To me that is the exact opposite of democracy.

Far too much moving of the goalposts and to be honest the whole think is a shit fest and makes us look a laughing stock!

I think you will find the facts were all there beforehand. It was just a question of where you went looking and who you believed had foresight. That’s politics. We will see now.

bWize · Jul 30, 2018

Questions said:
I think you will find the facts were all there beforehand. It was just a question of where you went looking. That’s politics. We will see now.

Sorry but I disagree. The facts were deliberately obfuscated from the start. Also, if the facts were there from the start why the need for a 2nd referendum?

Brian Fantana · Jul 30, 2018

Mustafa said:
Ignorance of the electorate is true, but a dangerous precedent if we are to accept this fact and want to take action on it. It is essentially saying that democracy cannot work because the general populace is not educated enough to vote on political matters.

Whereby it may be true... it's not a road we want to walk down.

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others".

Whether the Brexit vote was through ignorance or otherwise, we need to accept it if we are to accept democracy. If you don't want to accept democracy on this occasion, then please consider what the alternative should be.

We democratically voted to leave the EU. We need to accept it, whether we agree with it or not.

What's the point of electing MPs to represent us, and paying them to understand, debate and legislate on the important and complex issues which impact on our daily lives, but then shipping out a decision to the electorate which has so much detail involved in it, and which carries such significance for all of us?

The Rivet · Jul 30, 2018

Brian Fantana said:
What's the point of electing MPs to represent us, and paying them to understand, debate and legislate on the important and complex issues which impact on our daily lives, but then shipping out a decision to the electorate which has so much detail involved in it, and which carries such significance for all of us?

Ask them, of ALL parties. They voted overwhelmingly to hand it to a general plebiscite.

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