Religion & Science: A balanced view for my kids.

hart's shirt · Jul 5, 2015

Wilko said:
I agree, which I why I would also be very criticial of sending a child to a faith school, the education is clearly going to have bias.

In a non-faith school, there could equally be as much bias from those who don't believe as much as those do.

Of course, one can study something without having to believe it. Thus a child in a faith school can learn about all other religions and none.

For the record, I'm not a big fan of faith schools, regardless of whichever faith it is. Decisions on sending children there are often made primarily on religious grounds rather than educational ones.

Should parents have the right to send their kids to one? Of course. Is it going to be the best thing for the child? Often not if it's a poor-performing school.

hart's shirt · Jul 5, 2015

Wilko said:
I was just making a point that when many people note famous scientists who believe in god they are invariably from previous centuries.

Einstein's pretty recent - he only died 60 years ago.

(We won a Charity Shield 45 years earlier and, up until 1979, most of the older Albion fans were probably still celebrating that!)

beorhthelm · Jul 5, 2015

One Love said:
A well known opposer of the Dawkins brigade has said that he has been approached privately by loads of scientists who are scared of ridicule of their colleagues and so keep their beliefs to themselves.

I'm not sure a questionnaire is going to give a true reflection.

ah of course, anecdotal evidence from a theist is going to give a better reflection. not that Wilko's information excludes that some scientist believe in god.

Fungus · Jul 5, 2015

beorhthelm said:
you could start by setting out the separation of faith and science, and that atheism has nothing to do with science. many people that follow religions are involved in science without conflict, aside from a few areas (cant really be into evolutionary biology or astrophysics with a strong religious faith). i see religions as a branch of philosophy, so let them see the ethics aspect. though highlight the outright hypocrisy, contradictions and outright malevolence of the old testament.

If I were a believer, I'd want to separate faith from religion. I can't see any connection between a super-being and the rituals that man-made religion demands.

symyjym · Jul 5, 2015

[MENTION=19150]piersa[/MENTION]

Not enough detail to go on and would need to understand;
If your wife believes in God?
If you believe in God?
How old your children are?

I find religion interesting from a historical viewpoint, and how a simple belief, without the benefit of science, was lost/manipulated in translation and turned into a system for controlling the masses.

An example of this is that Jesus was rejected by the Jews and he hated organised religion because of it. He did not believe that to be in touch with God meant that you had to go to temples to worship or that it needed a hierarchy of people in charge of it.

2000 years later, the church is set up exactly against his principles.

How you go about it depends on the first three questions though.

symyjym · Jul 5, 2015

Lord Bracknell said:
The important thing for kids to learn is that "religion" isn't a set of alternative explanations for the things that are well explained by "science". Religion is about how to live one's life, how to interact with other people, good behaviour and stuff like that. And make sure that kids realise that you don't have to think of yourself as "religious" in order to live a good life. Science is about explaining how things have come about and how they work. Religion and science aren't incompatible.

And, if your kids can start to think about why and how religion and science aren't incompatible, they will be taking the first step towards wisdom.

Humanism has been adopted by religion so we don't need to use religion as a moral compass. Chimps understand social dynamics and the difference between good and bad, so I don't believe that religion should be credited with acceptable behaviour, because this is shared with most of the animal kingdom with varying degrees.

piersa · Jul 5, 2015

symyjym said:
[MENTION=19150]piersa[/MENTION]

Not enough detail to go on and would need to understand;
If your wife believes in God?
If you believe in God?
How old your children are?

I find religion interesting from a historical viewpoint, and how a simple belief, without the benefit of science, was lost/manipulated in translation and turned into a system for controlling the masses.

An example of this is that Jesus was rejected by the Jews and he hated organised religion because of it. He did not believe that to be in touch with God meant that you had to go to temples to worship or that it needed a hierarchy of people in charge of it.

2000 years later, the church is set up exactly against his principles.

How you go about it depends on the first three questions though.

My wife believes there is a god, I do not. Kids are 9 and 8. I believe there should be a balance in their education, so they can make an informed choice. Kid were refused entry to the local school because we were not attendees at the local church, which I find offensive.

piersa · Jul 5, 2015

Lord Bracknell said:
The important thing for kids to learn is that "religion" isn't a set of alternative explanations for the things that are well explained by "science". Religion is about how to live one's life, how to interact with other people, good behaviour and stuff like that. And make sure that kids realise that you don't have to think of yourself as "religious" in order to live a good life. Science is about explaining how things have come about and how they work. Religion and science aren't incompatible.

And, if your kids can start to think about why and how religion and science aren't incompatible, they will be taking the first step towards wisdom.

I accept that religion is useful to guide some people with problematic live, religion is certainly no owner of morality. A good upbringing with varied experience of different people and cultures has no substitute.

Lord Bracknell · Jul 5, 2015

symyjym said:
Humanism has been adopted by religion so we don't need to use religion as a moral compass. Chimps understand social dynamics and the difference between good and bad, so I don't believe that religion should be credited with acceptable behaviour, because this is shared with most of the animal kingdom with varying degrees.

I'm not saying that religion teaches people how to live. I'm saying that religion teaches people how to question. The defective thing about science is that it teaches us that there are absolute truths, but fails to tell us that, in the matter of morality, there is no absolute truth.

symyjym · Jul 5, 2015

piersa said:
My wife believes there is a god, I do not. Kids are 9 and 8. I believe there should be a balance in their education, so they can make an informed choice. Kid were refused entry to the local school because we were not attendees at the local church, which I find offensive.

It's a complex debate even for adults but the first step would be informing them that Father Christmas doesn't really exist if they ask :shrug:

I think you are probably the best person to give them a balanced view at their age, maybe show your kids the image below and point to where you are on it, and where your wife is on it. Then ask them where they think they are on it at the moment. It will also help them understand that there is a wide spectrum to look at that is not definative as a yes/no even in adults, and it's ok to sit on the fence.

Machiavelli · Jul 5, 2015

Lord Bracknell said:
I'm not saying that religion teaches people how to live. I'm saying that religion teaches people how to question. The defective thing about science is that it teaches us that there are absolute truths, but fails to tell us that, in the matter of morality, there is no absolute truth.

Philosophy is just a tad better at teaching people how to question.
Science gave up on its own version of absolute truth mid-way through the last century, beginning with falsificationism (which basically claims that knowledge is valid rather than true, or absolutely true -- by valid, they mean that it could be falsified or surpassed at a later date), and continuing with other philosophies of science.

beorhthelm · Jul 5, 2015

Lord Bracknell said:
I'm not saying that religion teaches people how to live. I'm saying that religion teaches people how to question. The defective thing about science is that it teaches us that there are absolute truths, but fails to tell us that, in the matter of morality, there is no absolute truth.

been on the brady a bit early? this is 180deg the wrong way round: religion gives unquestionable absolutes based on doctrine, while science seeks to question, explore and discover. certianly science tells us little to nothing about morality, and some people will mis-quote or mis-interpret science to suit their own end, but the purpose of scientific method is to discover knowledge about the world through experiment and evidence.

Machiavelli · Jul 5, 2015

beorhthelm said:
been on the brady a bit early? this is 180deg the wrong way round: religion gives unquestionable absolutes based on doctrine, while science seeks to question, explore and discover. certianly science tells us little to nothing about morality, and some people will mis-quote or mis-interpret science to suit their own end, but the purpose of scientific method is to discover knowledge about the world through experiment and evidence.

Most religions know that they're based on faith or belief, and not something that can be proved or demonstrated absolutely. Agree with what you say about the scientific method though.

Lord Bracknell · Jul 5, 2015

symyjym said:
It's a complex debate even for adults but the first step would be informing them that Father Christmas doesn't really exist if they ask

I think you are probably the best person to give them a balanced view at their age, maybe show your kids the image below and point to where you are on it, and where your wife is on it. Then ask them where they think they are on it at the moment. It will also help them understand that there is a wide spectrum to look at that is not definative as a yes/no even in adults, and it's ok to sit on the fence.

View attachment 66677

As long as you have the phrase "a God or gods" in that diagram, you're going to have to explain what you mean. And you can't explain what you mean without defining "God" and "gods". And once you start doing that, I'm going to be asking you awkward questions, such as "Why do you say God is like that?" And then you'll find yourself in a muddle, particularly if you really think that God isn't like that, because God doesn't exist.

symyjym · Jul 5, 2015

Lord Bracknell said:
I'm not saying that religion teaches people how to live. I'm saying that religion teaches people how to question. The defective thing about science is that it teaches us that there are absolute truths, but fails to tell us that, in the matter of morality, there is no absolute truth.

I think religion has only taught people to question religion and science was born from the contradictions to set us free from it. In ancient times it had a place, but it's a superstition just like someone not treading on the cracks in the pavement, and handing this behaviour down through the generations.

Lord Bracknell · Jul 5, 2015

beorhthelm said:
been on the brady a bit early? this is 180deg the wrong way round: religion gives unquestionable absolutes based on doctrine, while science seeks to question, explore and discover.

Eh?

I'm aware of a small number of sects that act as if they have had the absolute truth revealed to them, but it seems quite clear that the vast majority of religious people live with the uncertainty of their faith.

symyjym · Jul 5, 2015

Lord Bracknell said:
As long as you have the phrase "a God or gods" in that diagram, you're going to have to explain what you mean. And you can't explain what you mean without defining "God" and "gods". And once you start doing that, I'm going to be asking you awkward questions, such as "Why do you say God is like that?" And then you'll find yourself in a muddle, particularly if you really think that God isn't like that, because God doesn't exist.

piersa said his wife believes there is a god, he does not. The onus is on his wife to explain how she sees God, not me, she is the one taking them to church.

I didn’t create the diagram but I thought it would be a good starting point for him and his wife to discuss things with their kids.

Which one are you on the diagram?

Mowgli37 · Jul 5, 2015

Speaking as someone who attended a faith school (Catholic) within the last decade I never felt my education was affected by the religious aspect, which was largely confined to a prayer before lunch, a prayer for going-home time, hymn practise on Tuesdays and RE, where we learnt about all the major religions free from any bias. We were certainly never taught creationism nor brainwashed. None of my former classmates with whom I've been in contact since (roughly twenty out of thirty) appears to have any issues with making up their own mind.

In any case, you're their parent, couldn't you just tell them that they have a choice?

Lord Bracknell · Jul 5, 2015

symyjym said:
Which one are you on the diagram?

God knows.

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