Anyone else getting close to finally moving into the Hyypia out camp?

Dick Knights Mumm said:

I often read Holla lost form. What is this based on ?

Click to expand...

For me he just became less indispensable.

I remember a game where he and Crofts played as mirror images of each other.
I remember being pretty excited that 'another piece of the jigsaw' was sorted out.

We all know how that ended, Sami's luck, again.

Then when Ince started playing, and even though he was only ever being Ince, Holla's presence just wasn't as noticeable.

Saturday finally convinced me to move camp.
I have been in the "He will change it round camp, and give him a bit more time", but the tactical shambles on Saturday pushed me over the top.
Up until Kaz went off we were looking good.
Then he switched Benno over to the left in Kaz's place, alongside Colunga, and left nobody on the right in front of Bruno.
We were then so narrow that Parker ran the midfield, and Bruno was stranded.
Why didnt he leave Benno on the right, put Colunga wider on the left as he was at Norwich, and beef up the midfield, or at least bring Baldock on. Bringing Ince on
meant pushing JFC further forward and he was gobbled up by Fulham.
Sorry Sami, thanks but cheerio.

The squad we have should probably be well in the top half of the table.

The teams we play, sadly not.

This is the manager's job.

Unless it starts to get done soon, we should try to rescue the season with somebody more capable.

PS I went to the Birmingham Forest game on Saturday ( visiting a friend I'm afraid.) Birmingham have recently changed their manager and looked really good - and unbeaten in five games.

Is this a clue ?

Joey Jo Jo Jr. Shabadoo said:

I'm pretty much in the out camp now. Playing youngsters in midfield works when they have an older head next to them. How much did Bridcutt learn from that first season playing alongside the likes of Kishishev, Sparrow and Dicker? Ince, Gardner and JFC are all decent players but very inexperienced we need a player like Holla alongside them, he has around 200 games at the highest level in Holland. How come Hyypia can't see this? An older head to guide the younger players through at this level when the going gets tough is needed, it will stop the heads from dropping. I am sure if we could stop our midfield going missing week in week out we'd turn results around pretty quickly.

Click to expand...

What's absolutely crazy about this, is that HE did the same thing (but in defence) with Martin Skrtel

This weekend I moved from 70% - 30% in favour of Hyypia in, to 60% - 40% in favour of Hyypia in... Similar to [MENTION=12101]Mellotron[/MENTION], I've been vocally supportive of him, but his steadfast refusal to see what is unfolding in front of him is starting to worry me. In particular, there were 2 or 3 things on Saturday that started to knock my confidence in him:

1) Replacing Lua Lua with Ince: Lua Lua was having realy luck against their right back and I would have prefered to see Baldock or March (or Teixeira or McCourt if they'd been on the bench);
2) The farcical free-kick "routine" where they takers were studiously ignoring Hyypia's pleas to take it a certain way;
3) When Colunga was sent off, was Hyypia screaming from his bench for him to get a move on? No, he was slumped, arms folded in his seat.

That combined with his insistence in playing both JFC and Gardner has me seriously vexed.

Simster said:

I want to say OUT but only last week had suggested he needs to be given until Christmas, so I'll stick to my guns for now. I think half a season is enough time to judge, and think that if he gets binned from that point, half a season is still enough time to turn things around with someone else running things.

But ultimately that squad ought NOT to be a bottom 3 squad, so he has undoubtedly done his job badly. I'd say being naiive with squad selection and misjudging the quality of his players are forgivable mistakes, as long as he learns from them. Little sign of that though. And what is completely UNFORGIVABLE is the constant cluelessness of our players at set pieces. WTF is going on if you can't even get that sort of thing right during training? This is basic stuff.

Click to expand...

This is exactly my position. I don't believe that chopping and changing the manager really does much to improve the situation (sometimes the devil you know is better however bad he is), but my current disillusionment also revolves around set pieces.

The whole pitch should be cut up and the players know INSTANTLY who will take a free kick in any part of the pitch - 4 of them arguing over the ball is ridiculous!

Do we ever practice corners/crosses in training? If you tell me they play on the training ground in "landscape" rather than "portrait" then I'll believe you but otherwise not! How many 10ft tall strikers do we have? None? Well stop floating the ball 10 ft above the box then!

I too won't be crossing the line until after boxing day, but if we are still playing the way we are now, with no consistency in the squad and with no insight when substituting, (oh and coming out in the second half so uninspired that we concede early every other game) then I'm afraid I will have to join the calls for his head too.

GT49er said:

Pretty much what Stat Brother said. Started well. Got worse.

Click to expand...

So we know he can do it. Play him. To me - he is what we need. A wiser head in midfield who is brave on the ball.

He's not done well, but you've got to give him some time,question is how long?

Dick Knights Mumm said:

So we know he can do it. Play him. To me - he is what we need. A wiser head in midfield who is brave on the ball.

Click to expand...

I agree - however I'd get worse if the system I played in, not to mention personnel, changed every 30 mins or so! I'd say his loss of form coincided with him deciding he didn't have faith in his own manager. I think we may have seen a closed door falling out of sorts here. If Sami has any pride, he'd better swallow it or I suspect he'll regret it come Saturday 5:00pm. Or the travelling fans will be truly revolting.

Stat Brother said:

For me he just became less indispensable.

I remember a game where he and Crofts played as mirror images of each other.
I remember being pretty excited that 'another piece of the jigsaw' was sorted out.

We all know how that ended, Sami's luck, again.

Then when Ince started playing, and even though he was only ever being Ince, Holla's presence just wasn't as noticeable.

Click to expand...

Fair enough. I don't see all the games - but did not see the decline others have noticed. He is entitled to a dip in form, or a couple of bad games - he is adjusting to a new country and league. And in that position, a bad game is noticeable (where a good display not so).

I am with Adam Virgo - we need leaders on the pitch. And to me Holla looks one of them.

Kosh said:

I'd say his loss of form coincided with Holla deciding he didn't have faith in his own manager.

Click to expand...

I wonder if you are right. It is surprising we have not seen Holla on the pitch at all.

I do think Sami will be here in January regardless (Tony will back him until then at least), hopefully luck will have changed and some lessons learnt, otherwise we will be in deep, deep sh... I like rather him, after all is said and done, as he seems a decent chap, but after Saturday I do feel the bell is tolling somewhere in the post chrimbo distance, there yonder, on the horizon...

Always nice to have a bit of stability but what can ya do?

Sami sucks balls big time

Stat Brother said:

I just don't get Gardener, full stop.

Click to expand...

You and me both!

I'm in the "Sami out" camp now. Two league wins in four months is relegation form and the buck stops at his door. Without a change I can see us slipping further into the relegation zone and once you're in there, it's doubly hard to get out.

Dick Knights Mumm said:

I wonder if you are right. It is surprising we have not seen Holla on the pitch at all.

Click to expand...

It's one of two things:

He's (or a loved one) missing home, distinctly possible.
He's (allegedly) a strong character and a falling out has taken place, a 'bust up' as they say... Again distinctly possible.

Some slightly out there alternatives, such as:

He's writing a novel and has asked for time off to complete his magnum opus.
He's gone on Holladay.
He's formed a Led Zepp tribute band: A Holla Lot of Love. This one I like best of all... Rock On broster...

it staggers me how people have a constant go at JFC, Gardner, Stockdale, Bruno etc

And Baldock who has been a Million pound total waste of space never gets a mention...

Goals are where we are falling short.

This cant be laid at the feet of our Keeper, Defenders and holding midfielders..

This weekend put me in the OUT camp. I say 'camp', it's really more of a citadel.

I have always been of the "give a manager time" mindset - and I mean half a season, minimum - the desire for instant success is ridiculous. I'd also still be defending SH if we were constantly getting beaten by 30 yard worldies (Norwich), the odd individual clanger (Cardiff) or pure bad luck (deflected 2nd v Fulham). However, those things simply AREN'T happening in every game. The overwhelming number of goals conceded have been as a result of a fundamental flaw in the setup.

The full backs are pushed on far too high and the central midfield is incapable or unwilling of covering the gaps left. It's been noted of Man City that Yaya Toure leaves them vulnerable to the counter when their full backs bomb on, as he lets runners go and is less willing to bust a gut going backward as he is forward. If even he, one of the best players in the world, struggles defensively in a similar system, how Gary Gardner is supposed to fulfil the role is beyond me. Add to that the confusion over set pieces (is there even a plan and designated taker? Or are the players ignoring it?) and my patience wears thin. But SH's utter ambivalence to our plight is what bothers me. He sits stony faced and silent, watching game after game slip away, and makes no tangible effort to change things tactically or inject some passion into his side. Instead it's left to Jones to stand in the technical area shouting instructions.

Take Fulham as an example - first half we were cruising, and after getting in front, a good team would keep the ball, force the opposition to chase the game, pick off another on the break and then shut up shop. After 50 minutes Fulham had done nothing to deserve even a point. But there was an air of pessimistic inevitability about what followed. Having been relatively deep in the first half, the full backs were pushed on, E.Bennett & Colunga bizarrely both played left wing with nobody ahead of Bruno on the right, the game opened up, and it became a matter of time. Then, 2-1 down, SH could have thrown on Baldock for the last 10. We paid £1.5m for him, what better time to have him on the pitch? Even if he didn't score and we still lost, at least it would've looked like Hyypia was TRYING to get back into it.

But Baldock warmed up and warmed up, staring at the bench waiting for his cue. And Hyypia sat there. And the final whistle went.

As I say, if it was bad luck or opposition moments of magic, he'd be excused. And granted, he's not had much luck with injuries. But Poyet and Garcia both had worse, and managed - because criticise their more cautious approaches if you like, but one thing you cannot fault them for was their defensive setups. Even playing badly, you had faith we'd be solid and rarely concede 2 - we'd often only need one to go in to nick a draw or a 1-0 win. Hyypia doesn't have that. And it's not the individual players' faults - they're simply overwhelmed and exposed far too often by a system that offers them no protection.

All that said, the abuse of everyone to do with the club has been an embarrassment. Stockdale is a good keeper who the haters have decided isn't good enough, and have ignored his recent excellent performances. JFC has enormous potential, but needs an older head next to him, a more physical presence to let him step forward and offer more of a threat going forward. Baldock is (like CMS before him) hugely isolated and feeding off scraps, chasing lost causes into the corner and doing his best against two huge hulking centre halves. Many of the players were in a play-off side last year, or from the Prem, La Liga, or other foreign top flights. These are not bad players. But put Messi out of position and with no service and he won't be as good. Put Gérard Pique on his own at centre half with four attackers running at him, and there's only so much he can do.

I was willing to give SH time and maintain that those calling for his head in September were premature. For all they knew he could have turned things around. The problem is he hasn't, and he's running out of redeeming factors. If he's going to go, it needs to be before January or this season will be a write off. For me it's time for TB to wield his axe.

Marshy said:

it staggers me how people have a constant go at JFC, Gardner, Stockdale, Bruno etc

And Baldock who has been a Million pound total waste of space never gets a mention...

Goals are where we are falling short.

This cant be laid at the feet of our Keeper, Defenders and holding midfielders..

Click to expand...

Because Baldock isn't getting the ball in goal scoring positions.
Guess what happened the one time he did, he scored. (Bournemouth)

I thought it was really noticeable the whole team were keen to play Bent 'in'.
Quickly, directly & efficiently through the middle.

That hasn't happened all season, mainly because those playing 'the' pass, were previously shooting and never looking like scoring.