Lower West Stander
Well-known member
I was alive in the seventies.....
Got something to say or just want fewer pesky ads? Join us... 😊
[Politics] Another DESPICABLE Tory SURFACES
- Thread starter Ernest
- Start date
I was alive in the seventies.....
The fact that my question to you confuses you says all I need to know about you!
BBassic
I changed this.
- Jul 28, 2011
- 12,310
Yeah I'm aware that this is how politics work. It just frustrates me that any political discussion between opposing parties, whether on here or in our venerated Houses of Parliament, devolves into childish "he said, she said" point scoring with very little progress made towards solving the issue that sparked the debate.
It's so f**king tedious.
BadFish
Huge Member
- Oct 19, 2003
- 17,102
Yes I know, I was agreeing with you. Politics is ****ed. It would be so refreshing to hear someone talking about what they are going to do to improve things for the voters.
BBassic
I changed this.
- Jul 28, 2011
- 12,310
I need more coffee!
So was I. Why was it that even with the same weak labour laws and an open door policy for immigration from the commonwealth (policies dating from 1948) we had a 1960s boom (under Wilson) and yet as soon as Heath got it it all went to bollocks? Heath was weak and foolish. The One Nation conservatives were effectively managing a set of process, introduced after the war, that included widespread nationalisation, that they didn't really believe in, but for which they had no plan B. Heath mismanaged this and the unions went for him. The three day week, and power cuts (I remember having a candle lit bath - not like a romantic one with the missus but because the house was in harkness) took place under Heath. Wilson (then Callaghan) were left to clear up the mess (and failed). A few weeks before I left university, in came Thatcher. He manifesto spoke about selling off loss making nationalised industries (coal, steel, shipbuilding) whichmade sense. There was nothing about selling profit making nationalisd industries (flogging of the family jewels, as MacMillan, still alive, put it) with big companys (run by her pals) getting first dibs.
Personally I don't actually blame Heath for the debacle of the 70s, but he is more culpable than Labour, if you want to play the blame game. Like it or not, now, the young people are likely to vote Corbyn in, and the old are too fed up with sad Theresa to put up much of a fight. There is also a vacuum in conservative politics right now which is never good in the UK - in the 70s it allowed the national front and overt racism to bcome semi-respectable and acceptable. Without wishing to go too far off topic, the far right have never been an answer to anything, and as we see today with UKIP there is in-fighting, flagrant arrogance, and sexual pecadillos. There was a photo of John Tyndall (of Hove) circulating in the 80s of him, dressed like a german SS type surrounded by blond boys. Yes, he was a ****ing pervert.
And, no, the 70s was not the decade that England's Glory, built by good Conservative knowhow, was destroyed by socialism. It was much more nuanced than that.
Nevertheless it was much easier to take sides. As Bron Waugh said on a radio programme 'you want to change society because you want what I've got. I want society to stay as it is because I don't want you to have it'. Once you scrape away all the bullshit language and pretend allegiance to the NHS etc on one side and Blairist PPP on the other, this pretty much sums up how it has always been and how it will always be.
vegster
Sanity Clause
- May 5, 2008
- 27,892
Lets look at the " Question " again shall we ?
Chicken Run "Seriously, the majority of people don’t actually work in public service, how the hell are the Labour Party ever going to help anyone but those is public service? " ... I'm assuming that the IS before public service is meant to be an IN ?
Anyway, I'll go as slow and simple as I can. You are a member of the public and you pay local and national taxes to the council and government. The council and government provides services to the population, this is called being a society. At some time or other during their lifetime all citizens will use public services to varying degrees. What the Labour Party are proposing is to properly fund those services in the form of wages for staff and support for those services, really simply, money for books or money for medicine or employing enough people to maintain public toilets. Currently many services are being cut back or subjected to a freeze in investment. if Labour invests in these services it supports society.. ie, all of us. Hope this helps,
Lower West Stander
Well-known member
I can understand some of your sentiment here - but disagree with much of what you say.
In the 70s the unions were defending archaic working practices which needed to be changed - remember Red Robbo walking out over tea breaks? The Labour Party we’re effectively run by the Trade Unions at the time and whilst I agree Heath was weak it is overly simplistic to say he left a mess which Wilson couldn’t sort out. Like it or not High Scanlon, Joe Gormley et al had a political agenda.
I also agree there is a power vacuum - but not just in the Tory Party. Neither Labour or Tory centrists have any power at the moment as Labour moves too far left under Corbyn and the stories too far right under Brexiteers. That’s the worry for me. Theresa’s May’s greatest strength at the moment is her weakness.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
ManOfSussex
We wunt be druv
There's another despicable one here, jumping on a bandwagon on behalf of a constituency she hates...............and she can't even spell 'Bayeux' correctly.
Amber Rudd - Shame on you, indeed.
[tweet]953682648106524672[/tweet]
D
Deleted member 22389
Guest
You wont ever get me flocking back to Labour, no way. I can't forgive Blair and his crew for the mess they made and Corbyn is even worse. I shall continue to vote Tory.
Good. We have lots on which we agree, albeit differ perhaps on where to apportion blame. Personally I now try to avoid this (although it is easy to slip into doing so), and recognise that 'ees complicated' as Gussie used to say.
Yes I do remember red robbo and his chums. And red ken Leninspart. Cardboard caricatures invented by the media (I met 'stony faced Marxist', Livingstone in 1982, and was shocked by what I saw - witty and affable - and stoically having a laugh with the press rats who the day later crucified him in their rags). Red Ken may be a tit, but he was never the tit the Mail pretended him to be.
Certainly the unions have always seemed to me to be somewhat 'I'm alright Jack'. But that is why they exist. It is up to the employers to work out how to interact with them. In many cases this has worked well. It works very well in Germany as @hertubthumper can doubtless confirm. Unfortunately, here, the 'masters' have always had disdain for the horny handed sons of toil, and the latter mixed fear and loathing in equal measure.
Our unions were never properly political, beyond trite sloganeering, as in 'true and smart adhrents' of a cunning philosophy. They just grabbed what the could. And by that I mean the behemoth unions: SOGAT, NASWT, NATSOBA, NUM, NUR, ASLEF (remember that lot - and flinch? Lol!). Beer and sandwiches at number ten. It was much later that you had the likes of Bob Crow, council house dweller, member of SWP and on £150K a year (WTVF?) and even he was almost exclusively somone whose entire process was directed to improving pay and conditions for his men (rather than ruling the world). SWP and WRP etc are minority cults, and most trade unionists were socially conservative (if not actually conservative in some cases).
No, both labour and conservative were rubbish at dealing with the unions in the 60s and 70s. But society was very much 'us versus them', 'wages versus salaries' 'paid weekly or even daily versus paid monthly', and as for workplace pensions....these days its normal to chat with the local bin men, but back then people looked down on them and 'their kind'.
As I am sort of trying to say, I don't think that harking back to the past is likly to take us very far forward. Somone I know had a bad relationship when he was about 20 and decided '**** that' and has stayed single ever since. I shake my head, sadly. I'd be astonished if Corbyn is so stupid he'd have union leaders round at number ten (leaders whose membership has shrunk by 90%), or do anything else as dumb and antagonistic to the populus as his IRA meeting in the 1980s. If he does anything like that I'll class him as borderline aspergers, and with hopeless deluded advisors to boot.
My main issue with Corbyn concerns his current policy and recent record; he has been weak over Brexit - I cannot tell you whether he will make his lot vote for any old deal, or not. If he fails to oppose Brexit if thre is a vote on 'no deal Brexit' or 'bad deal Brexit' then I will have to go from passive opposition to the tories ('anyone but') to active support for the librals who seem to be the only party with a clear and logical view on Brexit. Don't get me wrong, I voted remain, but would be relaxed over a good Brexit deal. What I can't stomach is a bad Brexit deal, entred into eyes wide open with the politicians knowing it will do harm. If Corbyn fails to oppose that I'd have to ask myself 'what are you here for?'.
So I’ll cut to the chase fairly quickly, Labour will only help those who work in public services then? The rest of us will muddle on with shit pay a no pensions?
Politics for the many not the few sound familiar?
maltaseagull
Well-known member
Was a while ago but :
Elliot Morley
Former environment minister and Labour MP for Scunthorpe
Offence – Pleaded guilty to fraudulently claiming £32,000 of parliamentary expenses.
Details – Between April 2004 and February 2006, Morley submitted 19 claims for excessive mortgage payments to which he was not entitled. Between April 2004 and February 2006 he submitted 21 second home allowance forms for a mortgage he had already paid off.
Sentence – Jailed for 16 months in May 2011.
Released – September 2011 after serving a quarter of his term.
David Chaytor
Former Labour MP for Bury North
Offence – Pleaded guilty to three counts of false accounting relating to approximately £18,000 of parliamentary expenses.
Details – Submitted claims for the rent of a flat in Westminster which he had bought in 1999 and had paid off the mortgage for in 2003.
Sentence – Jailed for 18 months in January 2011.
Released – May 2011 after serving almost a third of his sentence.
Eric Illsley
Former Labour MP for Barnsley Central
Offence – Pleaded guilty to fraudulently claiming £14,000 in parliamentary expenses.
Details – Made false claims for his second home between 2005 and 2008 and also over claimed for council tax and utility bills.
Sentence – Jailed for 12 months in February 2011.
Released – May 2011 after serving four months.
Jim Devine
Former Labour MP for Livingston
Offence – Found guilty of dishonestly claiming £8,385 in parliamentary expenses.
Details – Claimed for cleaning and maintenance and printing work that the judge said was “entirely bogus”.
Sentence – Jailed for 16 months.
Released – August after serving a quarter of his sentence.
There were some tories too. I am of the opinion that most MPs are dubious. Especially here!
Hastings gull
Well-known member
- Nov 23, 2013
- 4,635
You clearly don't see the contradiction here and accuse an other poster of being thick.. On the one hand, there is zero chance of the unions flexing their muscles, and then on the other employees relying on the unions to improve their pay and conditions.
Not Andy Naylor
Well-known member
So which of these are you claiming put a charity donation on expenses?
vegster
Sanity Clause
- May 5, 2008
- 27,892
Oh dear, not part of society then ? so you won't benefit by a properly funded NHS ? do you have children currently at school ? would you like your children to have a better education than you ? As for shit pay and pensions, don't expect this to change under the current regime.
My workplace pension was reluctantly put in place by my employer after legally deferring it for as long as possible and then contributing the legal minimum they can. I'm ten years from retirement and I'm matching my employers contribution and my projected pension upon retirement ..... £356 a YEAR ! So currently we have an economy where benefits and food banks support the working poor across huge swathes of the country, are the Tories suddenly going to change this ? so, what's the alternative and where is it going to come from ?
midnight_rendezvous
Well-known member
Pesky lefties opposing the privitastion of the NHS, the rise in food banks, cuts to cooperation tax meaning cooperations pay less tax than their employees, spectacularly missed economic targets and the longest fall in value of wages since records began began! *shakes fist*
midnight_rendezvous
Well-known member
Ah yes the myth that Labour policies are bad for the economy even though historical evidence suggest the exact opposite...
