[Politics] Brexit

ManOfSussex · Feb 22, 2018

beorhthelm said:
still making this claim? its simple: we'll have no border with the Republic of Ireland. if the EU wish to impose one from their side, thats their decision. this issue could always be a source of compromise not a source of conflict.

freedom of movement is not about physical restrictions at the border, but about what people are entitled to once the other side. agreement between RoI and UK existed before the EU and still stands.

It's all The EU's fault again and not a consequence of us leaving after 40+ years of integration and yeah, but, yeah, but yeah, but the CTA existed before we joined at the same time as The ROI etc, etc, so it's all Dublin's and The EU's fault and not ours, etc, etc - Okay.

JC Footy Genius · Feb 22, 2018

ManOfSussex said:
I'll draw my own conclusions as to why a right-winger like you is so keen and eager to jump at these figures and hold up as some triumph of Brexit when they're far more by accident than design and non-EU migration is on the rise. As I say the fall the EU migration can also be attributed to the Eurozone crisis receding/improving economic outlook there, the fall in our currency against the Euro and slowest growth in the G7 - still tiny things and all that, so I understand your joy at the EU migration figures - so congratulations etc.

Still, it was a mistake of mine to engage in conversation about immigration with you in the first place, so I apologise. Careful with your knuckles as you drag them away/we'll leave it there, thanks

I agree it's just a by-product of the Brexit process but still welcome for those who wanted to see a reduction in net immigration.

Everyone is to the right of a class warrior, corbynista. Is this the bit where I say careful of that chip on your shoulder

JC Footy Genius · Feb 22, 2018

WATFORD zero said:
You started the discussion by pointing out that EU immigration to Britain is declining. I thought the discussion was about why immigrants are stopping coming to Britain and going elsewhere in the EU. You're now giving reasons why this shouldn't have happened.

Maybe you and BigGully can put something together about how well we are doing, to encourage the EU's brightest to come and pay their taxes here, because at the moment it seems they are not sold on how brilliantly we are doing

Yes and my reasoning was it was most likely mainly down to Brexit whereas you seemed to think the recent uptick in EU economic fortunes plus forecasts of UK economic decline was the cause. Unlikely imo for the reasons I have provided.

ManOfSussex · Feb 22, 2018

JC Footy Genius said:
I agree it's just a by-product of the Brexit process but still welcome for those who wanted to see a reduction in net immigration.

Everyone is to the right of a class warrior, corbynista. Is this the bit where I say careful of that chip on your shoulder

I did say lets leave it there, thanks - though I knew your smugness would prevent this.

I wouldn't particularly call myself either in all seriousness, but if calling me a class warrior and Corbynista is meant to be some form of insult or derogatory term it missed the target by some considerable distance. Still, a better attempt at humour at than the pastafairys drowned migrants one this morning, I'll give you that at least.

Have a nice day now and bye-bye. :bigwave:

beorhthelm · Feb 22, 2018

ManOfSussex said:
It's all The EU's fault again and not a consequence of us leaving after 40+ years of integration and yeah, but, yeah, but yeah, but the CTA existed before we joined at the same time as The ROI etc, etc, so it's all Dublin's and The EU's fault and not ours, etc, etc - Okay.

why be so dismissive of facts. its not "the EU's fault", because they haven't finalised the arrangement, all to play for. however if they want a hard border, and we want a seemless border, who do we blame for having a hard border? if UK turn round and say we will impose restrictions on people and goods, etc, i will blame UK government for the consequences.

CHAPPERS · Feb 22, 2018

beorhthelm said:
why be so dismissive of facts. its not "the EU's fault", because they haven't finalised the arrangement, all to play for. however if they want a hard border, and we want a seemless border, who do we blame for having a hard border? if UK turn round and say we will impose restrictions on people and goods, etc, i will blame UK government for the consequences.

A seamless border means remaining in the EU. Which 'we' have voted out of.

WATFORD zero · Feb 22, 2018

beorhthelm said:
why be so dismissive of facts. its not "the EU's fault", because they haven't finalised the arrangement, all to play for. however if they want a hard border, and we want a seemless border, who do we blame for having a hard border? if UK turn round and say we will impose restrictions on people and goods, etc, i will blame UK government for the consequences.

I believe that what you are advocating is no border (unless you mean something else by seemless border ?).

Following the agreement of phase 1 of the negotiations it seems likely that both the EU and Britain want no border between Ireland and NI (which I think is very sensible). This does mean though, freedom of movement for goods and people.

It seems likely that Britain and in particular, the DUP, want no border between NI and the rest of Britain (which I think is very sensible). This does mean though, freedom of movement for goods and people.

If we are going to have freedom of movement of goods and people between the EU and Britain (which I think is very sensible), it means remaining in the single market and all it's associated legislation.

Is this what you mean ?

*edit* very succinct [MENTION=13]CHAPPERS[/MENTION]

nicko31 · Feb 22, 2018

WATFORD zero said:
I believe that what you are advocating is no border (unless you mean something else by seemless border ?).

It seems likely that both the EU and Britain want no border between Ireland and NI (which I think is very sensible). This does mean though, freedom of movement for goods and people.

It seems likely that Britain and in particular, the DUP, want no border between NI and the rest of Britain (which I think is very sensible). This does mean though, freedom of movement for goods and people.

If we are going to have freedom of movement of goods and people between the EU and Britain (which I think is very sensible), it means remaining in the single market.

Is this what you mean ?

Gotta love the DUP

beorhthelm · Feb 22, 2018

CHAPPERS said:
A seamless border means remaining in the EU. Which 'we' have voted out of.

my contention is that it does not, unless one party makes it so. there is already legislation in place covering UK-Ireland relations for border, immigration, rights etc. which we can fall back on, and both UK and Ireland want a seemless border. from that starting point problems that emerge are solvable if there is political will to do so.

im surprised theres not more about the Gibraltar issue, a much more thorny issue requiring agreement of a semi-hostile member.

WATFORD zero · Feb 22, 2018

beorhthelm said:
my contention is that it does not, unless one party makes it so. there is already legislation in place covering UK-Ireland relations for border, immigration, rights etc. which we can fall back on, and both UK and Ireland want a seemless border. from that starting point problems that emerge are solvable if there is political will to do so.

im surprised theres not more about the Gibraltar issue, a much more thorny issue requiring agreement of a semi-hostile member.

You're talking about legislation for border, immigrants, rights etc ? So is there a border where people/goods are checked, and if so, where is it ?

As for Gibraltar - they're f***ed (hence the 96% remain vote)

beorhthelm · Feb 22, 2018

WATFORD zero said:
It seems likely that both the EU and Britain want no border between Ireland and NI (which I think is very sensible). This does mean though, freedom of movement for goods and people.

It seems likely that Britain and in particular, the DUP, want no border between NI and the rest of Britain (which I think is very sensible). This does mean though, freedom of movement for goods and people.

If we are going to have freedom of movement of goods and people between the EU and Britain (which I think is very sensible), it means remaining in the single market and all it's associated legislation.

Is this what you mean ?

you can separate movement of goods and movement of people. and seperate border control as the EU does (Schengen is not EU agreement). you can separate spheres of control too, so there are different rules for goods across the land border and sea border. so broadly, you can maintain free movement of Irish and UK people across those borders, have goods restrictions on sea border while not on the land border.

WATFORD zero · Feb 22, 2018

beorhthelm said:
you can separate movement of goods and movement of people. and seperate border control as the EU does (Schengen is not EU agreement). you can separate spheres of control too, so there are different rules for goods across the land border and sea border. so broadly, you can maintain free movement of Irish and UK people across those borders, have goods restrictions on sea border while not on the land border.

So you are suggesting that we have borders both between Ireland and NI for immigration controls and between NI and the rest of Britain for goods.

I'm sorry, i'm genuinely not taking the piss, but I really don't know where to start :shrug:

Berty23 · Feb 22, 2018

JC Footy Genius said:
I agree it's just a by-product of the Brexit process but still welcome for those who wanted to see a reduction in net immigration.

Everyone is to the right of a class warrior, corbynista. Is this the bit where I say careful of that chip on your shoulder

What are your views on the rise in non-eu migration that is easily controlled but hasn't been?

Obviously the nett fall in EU migration is very interesting and linked to many different factors as others have said.

I don't think you can say that we are at record low unemployment because it went up almost 50k as per yesterday. Time will tell if this is a blip or a trend. Could be some confused folk if migration falls and unemployment increases. People might realise that the arguments about "taking our jobs" are a bit basic.

pastafarian · Feb 22, 2018

ManOfSussex said:
Incidentally I notice your poll on your other thread isn't anonymous, so I'm afraid I wont be voting in it and fuelling your notorious online voyeurism any further than it already has been.

I am certain a handful of the more vocal remainers do not really have the confidence in what they are spouting on here. Wouldn’t be surprised if at least one cant even remember what his position is.

Berty23 · Feb 22, 2018

beorhthelm said:
you can separate movement of goods and movement of people. and seperate border control as the EU does (Schengen is not EU agreement). you can separate spheres of control too, so there are different rules for goods across the land border and sea border. so broadly, you can maintain free movement of Irish and UK people across those borders, have goods restrictions on sea border while not on the land border.

if you are trying to win the "I have no idea how the EU works" competition.

They have made it abundantly clear that people and goods are not separated with regards to our access. If we want free trade with goods then we keep the current rules on people. How can they have different land and sea rules? Isn't a slight flaw in your plan that good could be sent to Ireland by sea and then moved by land?

ManOfSussex · Feb 22, 2018

beorhthelm said:
why be so dismissive of facts. its not "the EU's fault", because they haven't finalised the arrangement, all to play for. however if they want a hard border, and we want a seemless border, who do we blame for having a hard border? if UK turn round and say we will impose restrictions on people and goods, etc, i will blame UK government for the consequences.

We're the ones leaving and there are consequences for doing so. I don't see Dublin pointing the finger at Brussels here and with all due respect there seems to be a lot more common sense politically in the fair city than here currently, not that that's particularly difficult at present.

Lincoln Imp · Feb 22, 2018

pastafarian said:
Whole communities in the US are going to be turned into rust belts? Wow,did you read that in the Independent?

The way in which cheap imports affected US manufacturing and, consequently, the lives of people who worked in and around it was one of the issues that drove Donald Trump to the White House. In England, similar feelings of being left behind, of not sharing in the country's prosperity, of not being listened to all helped to drive the Brexit vote. I haven't the vaguest idea how you think the industry-decimating theories of the professor from Cardiff will provide the people of (say) the NE with the succour they need and seek. He admits that his ideas will mean that their major employers will go but, as a word of comfort, adds that "there will always be jobs for people without sophisticated skills". Welcome to the Keith Joseph for the Brexit age.

JC Footy Genius · Feb 22, 2018

Berty23 said:
What are your views on the rise in non-eu migration that is easily controlled but hasn't been?

Obviously the nett fall in EU migration is very interesting and linked to many different factors as others have said.

I don't think you can say that we are at record low unemployment because it went up almost 50k as per yesterday. Time will tell if this is a blip or a trend. Could be some confused folk if migration falls and unemployment increases. People might realise that the arguments about "taking our jobs" are a bit basic.

Shows the Uk is still a very attractive destination for non Eu based immigrants? #despitebrexit

Mainly Brexit based which is why it ony fell after the vote and before signs of recovery in EU growth.

Who said we were at record low unemployment?

beorhthelm · Feb 22, 2018

WATFORD zero said:
So you are suggesting that we have borders both between Ireland and NI for immigration controls and between NI and the rest of Britain for goods.

suggesting no immigration controls across the land border, checks on origin of goods going over the border with more stringent checks on the sea crossings. as neither are in Schengen there is officially border controls in place anyway.

Two Professors · Feb 22, 2018

Berty23 said:
What are your views on the rise in non-eu migration that is easily controlled but hasn't been?

Obviously the nett fall in EU migration is very interesting and linked to many different factors as others have said.

I don't think you can say that we are at record low unemployment because it went up almost 50k as per yesterday. Time will tell if this is a blip or a trend. Could be some confused folk if migration falls and unemployment increases. People might realise that the arguments about "taking our jobs" are a bit basic.

The jobless total went up because KFC,Costa,DHL, and Maccy D's aren't recruiting graduates at the moment. :lolol:

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