[Sussex] monks farm planning

Stat Brother · Oct 4, 2018

Some eye catching statistics from the end of last year, concerning all things cars and roads:-

10 charts that tell the story of Britain's roads

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42182497

beorhthelm · Oct 4, 2018

mikeyjh said:
NIMBYISM - In all likelihood, a deliberately pejorative word created by developers to quieten resistance to their plans. I agree with Zac Goldsmith on very very little but he wrote very eloquently (meaning I agreed with him!) about the subject and referred to NIMBYS as the 'breaks on excess', as every good democracy would need, and 'defenders of our backyards'. Without NIMBYS, the country would be a poorer place, IMO.

Nimbyism is was a term to describe those that want development, be it roads, housing, commercial parks or industry, just somewhere else. they are not a break on excess, they are a obstacle to progress and development. typical example i know well, an estate about 20-30 years old was stirred into a campaign because new development that about a dozen of them would see, replacing an old farmyard. years of delay followed, including the genius objection that the loss of the farm would lead to lose of produce in the local farmers market, as if that is a concern for planning. we saw similar with the training ground and the stadium, petty, irrelevant obstacles put up that delay development and increase the costs. constructive objections on detail and form of developments are welcome, what we have is people saying no development near here, but please build new homes for my children/family; we want a new school but put it the other side of the town please, so on. then some people take political pot shots that we have the lowest development for 50 years, theres no infrastructure, etc.

Stat Brother · Oct 4, 2018

beorhthelm said:
Nimbyism is was a term to describe those that want development, be it roads, housing, commercial parks or industry, just somewhere else. they are not a break on excess, they are a obstacle to progress and development. typical example i know well, an estate about 20-30 years old was stirred into a campaign because new development that about a dozen of them would see, replacing an old farmyard. years of delay followed, including the genius objection that the loss of the farm would lead to lose of produce in the local farmers market, as if that is a concern for planning. we saw similar with the training ground and the stadium, petty, irrelevant obstacles put up that delay development and increase the costs. constructive objections on detail and form of developments are welcome, what we have is people saying no development near here, but please build new homes for my children/family; we want a new school but put it the other side of the town please, so on. then some people take political pot shots that we have the lowest development for 50 years, theres no infrastructure, etc.

A new development has been built in Angmering, surrounding Worthing Rugby Club.
It's across the road from the Bramley Green, 1000+ houses, development that's approximately 10 years old.

A few houses in Bramley Green had stickers etc protesting about the identical development across the road.

Yet none of them had 'Pro-Irony' stickers. :shrug:

mikeyjh · Oct 4, 2018

beorhthelm said:
Nimbyism is was a term to describe those that want development, be it roads, housing, commercial parks or industry, just somewhere else. they are not a break on excess, they are a obstacle to progress and development. typical example i know well, an estate about 20-30 years old was stirred into a campaign because new development that about a dozen of them would see, replacing an old farmyard. years of delay followed, including the genius objection that the loss of the farm would lead to lose of produce in the local farmers market, as if that is a concern for planning. we saw similar with the training ground and the stadium, petty, irrelevant obstacles put up that delay development and increase the costs. constructive objections on detail and form of developments are welcome, what we have is people saying no development near here, but please build new homes for my children/family; we want a new school but put it the other side of the town please, so on. then some people take political pot shots that we have the lowest development for 50 years, theres no infrastructure, etc.

Some of that may be true but it doesn't mean they're wrong - In this instance, I suspect few of the objectors gave a flying ***k whether there was an IKEA in the south east of England so your definition simply fails.

Blanket dismal of an objection on the basis of it being nimbyism is erroneous.

The Clamp · Oct 4, 2018

Stat Brother said:
Assuming you are talking about yourself in the third person, just out of interest when you bought your house did you think:-

- Oh it's lovely esp with that massive area of grassland right on our doorstep.
or
- Oh it's lovely but at some point something is going to get built there, I wonder what?

The actual building itself doesn’t affect me directly. I can see it from my kitchen window, it takes away a small bit of my view of the downs and it’s not a pretty building but it is t blocking my light or directly in front of our place. I’m more concerned about the lack of infrastructure to support the influx of new residents. And I also feel sorry for the people in the lovely little houses that are now shrouded in darkness and dwarfed by the new build. It must have been devastating.

pb21 · Oct 4, 2018

Regarding Nimbyism I heard this on the radio recently, well worth a listen:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bf7n9s

Giraffe · Oct 4, 2018

I know it's vaguely linked to our football club but I have to say I think this is a shocking decision. Whacking another roundabout on the A27 is madness. Just adding yet another bottle neck.

DarrenFreemansPerm · Oct 4, 2018

Stat Brother said:
But plenty of people do.

Not everyone has to take 2 mile journeys by car, not everyone has to drive their children to school, not everyone has to start work at the same time, not everyone has to sit in traffic behind a bus for almost the entirety of their journey.

Wow, it’s amazing how ignorant someone can be when discussing a topic that doesn’t affect them. How many people can pick and choose when they start work? How many ‘school runs’ happen between 5-6pm? How many buses have you seen on the A27?

PoG · Oct 4, 2018

Giraffe said:
I know it's vaguely linked to our football club but I have to say I think this is a shocking decision. Whacking another roundabout on the A27 is madness. Just adding yet another bottle neck.

Do you not think it'll be an improvement on the traffic lights currently in place? I would have thought the majority of the traffic will be flowing east to west and vice versa so would assume the traffic flow will be improved.

blue-shifted · Oct 4, 2018

mikeyjh said:
NIMBYISM - In all likelihood, a deliberately pejorative word created by developers to quieten resistance to their plans. I agree with Zac Goldsmith on very very little but he wrote very eloquently (meaning I agreed with him!) about the subject and referred to NIMBYS as the 'breaks on excess', as every good democracy would need, and 'defenders of our backyards'. Without NIMBYS, the country would be a poorer place, IMO.

It intrigues me that there isn't an expression for a 'reverse NIMBY' - and I say this who now spends most of their time away from the area - Those who maybe happen to like IKEA's tat and live a few miles away, GREAT! I don't have to go to Croydon to buy my wobbly furniture, I only need to got Lancing, the locals are NIMBYS who can go ***k themselves anyway! We had several years spending many hours on the road visiting our sick and expiring mothers in Swansea and Derbyshire, finding the right time to break through the Shoreham/Lancing gridlock was basically impossible, it doesn't make me smile thinking of it getting worse and worse....

By way of an example, where my new abode lies is in fast let low flying training area - For context, we live in a 'parish' area that would be the size of Peacehaven to Worthing east/west and as far north as Burgess Hill, the population is approximately 600, it's rural - There are quite a lot of visitors who come and spend the entire day on some of the mountains photographing the jets. When the local (Plaid) MP suggested and launched a consultancy, having received many low flying complaints over the years, she and the various locals who are upset by the disturbance were subjected to a tirade of abuse and accusations of NIMBYISM by people that, on the whole, lived > 100 miles away. I happen to enjoy seeing the planes and only about 10% of them come directly in front of my house but I entirely support people's right to be upset and to complain about something that is happening in their locale.

Anyway, I digress, in short, support your cause and if your cause is IKEA so be it - But don't dismiss local opinion as NIMBYISM because it really matters, you never know, one day it really could be in your back yard - It won't be in mine, by the way. Right, I need some Rajtan spice jars, any ideas?

Don’t agree with you or Zack on nimbyism

Ultimately this, and every country, needs a certain amount of infrastructure. Some of it is relatively desirable, ie post offices, shops, doctors .. Some of it less so, eg sewage works, asylum centres, dual carriageways.

Now individuals might not want, for example an electricity pylon, near their house, but ultimately the country needs it and it’s got to go near to someone’s house.

What gets me about nimbyism is the dishonesty, people who previously had no interest in the environment suddenly form into “environmental action groups”. Local councillors protest even though, objectively it’s well sited, just to save their jobs.

I don’t mind legitimate objections if it’s bringing something that hadn’t been considered to the attention of the planners, or there are positive suggestions to improve the development, but all too often it’s either a cynical attempt to preserve their property price at the expense of the common good or it gives bored middle class retired people a cause to make their lives less dull. With the Amex proposal, it was both.

PoG · Oct 4, 2018

The Clamp said:
The actual building itself doesn’t affect me directly. I can see it from my kitchen window, it takes away a small bit of my view of the downs and it’s not a pretty building but it is t blocking my light or directly in front of our place. I’m more concerned about the lack of infrastructure to support the influx of new residents. And I also feel sorry for the people in the lovely little houses that are now shrouded in darkness and dwarfed by the new build. It must have been devastating.

are you referring to the large development on Brighton Road? If so I agree if I lived there I would be furious.

mikeyjh · Oct 4, 2018

blue-shifted said:
Don’t agree with you or Zack on nimbyism
I don’t mind legitimate objections if it’s bringing something that hadn’t been considered to the attention of the planners, or there are positive suggestions to improve the development

Apologies for cutting the middle bit out but I wanted to highlight this point - All I'm really arguing is that you cannot dismiss NIMBYS on the basis that they are so, they may have, as you describe it, a legitimate objection. Using the IKEA Lancing example, to dismiss concerns about traffic as being illegitimate is very difficult to take seriously. It appears that on balance, when all the impacts are taken in to account, the traffic disturbance is considered not so significant as to halt the proposal but that absolutely doesn't mean they were not legitimate.

I fully suspect that when push comes to shove we're all NIMBYS, we just don't know it yet.

Papa Lazarou · Oct 4, 2018

Stat Brother said:
A new development has been built in Angmering, surrounding Worthing Rugby Club.
It's across the road from the Bramley Green, 1000+ houses, development that's approximately 10 years old.

A few houses in Bramley Green had stickers etc protesting about the identical development across the road.

Yet none of them had 'Pro-Irony' stickers.

****wits - classic Ironic Nimbyism

Thunder Bolt · Oct 4, 2018

Giraffe said:
I know it's vaguely linked to our football club but I have to say I think this is a shocking decision. Whacking another roundabout on the A27 is madness. Just adding yet another bottle neck.

After the Air Show crash, the traffic lights at the Sussex Pad were switched off for a while. The traffic flowed better during that time.

LamieRobertson · Oct 4, 2018

Thunder Bolt said:
After the Air Show crash, the traffic lights at the Sussex Pad were switched off for a while. The traffic flowed better during that time.

Not in ''rush hour'' it didnt

LamieRobertson · Oct 4, 2018

mikeyjh said:
Apologies for cutting the middle bit out but I wanted to highlight this point - All I'm really arguing is that you cannot dismiss NIMBYS on the basis that they are so, they may have, as you describe it, a legitimate objection. Using the IKEA Lancing example, to dismiss concerns about traffic as being illegitimate is very difficult to take seriously. It appears that on balance, when all the impacts are taken in to account, the traffic disturbance is considered not so significant as to halt the proposal but that absolutely doesn't mean they were not legitimate.

I fully suspect that when push comes to shove we're all NIMBYS, we just don't know it yet.

Intelligent and considerate response

Thunder Bolt · Oct 4, 2018

Weststander said:
The UK's population in 1997 was 58 million, now it's 67 million, and projected to reach 70 million.

The genie was let out of the bottle with an effective open doors borders policy. I voted remain and recognise that most of those who came to the UK have worked hard.

But the number of new homes units built has been pitiful, compared to the numbers needed. Despite the wishes of opponents, each local authority has to take a fair share of the huge numbers needed. Selfishly trying to push the problem elsewhere by proposing that Mid Sussex or anyone other than Adur to Brighton, doesn't give the numbers. I know through work contacts that opponents also relentlessly fight brownfield development proposals in Brighton, Hove and Lewes, which are simply for houses (not multi story blocks of apartments).

Regarding infrastructure, we've never a joined-up thinking strategic overview for transport and roads. All the way back to the 70's, possibly before, houses are built and traffic gets worse.

Migration is in the thousands not millions. It also includes foreign students who go back home after completing their studies.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/

Population increases have far more to do with better health, lower infant mortality and people living longer.
Tell the doctors to allow us to smoke, drink and laze around more.

beorhthelm · Oct 4, 2018

mikeyjh said:
Blanket dismal of an objection on the basis of it being nimbyism is erroneous.

agree that dismissal of objections is wrong. the problem is that objections, such as traffic are used to stop the entire development, rather than a concern that needs to be addressed in itself. can the traffic be mitigated? is the development size correct? in the case of IKEA, should the planning be on condition they provide bus stops and contribute to additional bus services to assist this concern.

and on local developments round my way, i've been supportive of three. one the expansion of a school, bizarrely objected to by same people complaining a housing development will put pressure on the school. one group of the objectors want a new school built instead, because of the disruption during building

.

mikeyjh · Oct 4, 2018

beorhthelm said:
agree that dismissal of objections is wrong. the problem is that objections, such as traffic are used to stop the entire development, rather than a concern that needs to be addressed in itself. can the traffic be mitigated? is the development size correct? in the case of IKEA, should the planning be on condition they provide bus stops and contribute to additional bus services to assist this concern.

I agree

The Clamp · Oct 4, 2018

PoG said:
are you referring to the large development on Brighton Road? If so I agree if I lived there I would be furious.

Yeah, that’s the one. And it got really snuck in too. They first applied for a 4 storey hotel, that got turned down, they appealed, won and then changed it and applied for the monstrosity that is being built. That obviously got approved. How the hell that happened I’ll never know!
I can see both sides , people need to live somewhere but there has to be some kind of compromise and the needs of existing residents taken into account. That building really is a travesty. 3 or 4 storeys would be okay but developers need to get as many apartments in as possible to make a huge profit.
Sigh, what can anyone do about it, big money always wins.
Sadly the only way to stop developments is to object to height as developers give up if they can’t maximise profit. The infrastructure, traffic, and amenities argument rarely ever prevails.

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