Southern Rail STRIKE details

thedonkeycentrehalf · Sep 20, 2016

el punal said:
Thank you for that information. But what a shocking situation to end up in. Whoever is responsible, be it DfT, Southern, Govia or Uncle Tom Cobley, they need shooting (metaphorically, of course).

If this problem was known about months, if not years, ago, why was it not addressed? It is blindingly obvious, from your post, that if there was going to be a desperate shortage of drivers it would lead to the chaos that we have now. What's the point of overseeing a transport system if you have no one to run it?

So I suppose the next logical question, again based on your information, how long would it take to ensure that there enough drivers available to ensure that we have a full, 100%, service in operation?

Somewhere, way back in this thread, I posted a link to a Southern press release from December last year which said then that they did not have enough crew to be able to deliver what was then a new timetable.

So, when you don't have enough employees to deliver a service and you are reliant on overtime and good will of those employees you do have to cover the gaps, what sensible company would then choose to start a dispute with their employees and annoy them enough to remove that good will?

wakeytom · Sep 20, 2016

Ernest said:
Hopefully there will be no incidents caused by their lack of training

That just reads as you hope there is so you can say you told people so, your view of this whole thing is biased and based on posts like this a little sickening and proof that unions will say anything at all costs to get what they want

theboybilly · Sep 20, 2016

el punal said:
So how long will it take to recruit, train (no pun intended), and finally, allow new drivers to operate trains, so that a full service can be implemented throughout the region?

I am perplexed by this state of affairs. Forget the current dispute of DOO/ Guard duties, Govia or Southern must have known about this shortfall of staff ages ago, and for whatever reason, chose to ignore it. If that is the case then it's scandalous, and they should hang their heads in shame.

The thing is it's an expensive job training up a new recruit. 18 months would be a rough guide now just to get him out driving up and down a branch line....much more to fulfil a full roster in his 'Link'. Southern , for all their crowing about recruiting lots of new drivers don't like spending money. They would much prefer to recruit drivers already trained in rules and with knowledge of what the job entails. All they will need is time to learn routes and be trained on the particular classes of train they need to know. Say, for example it takes 3 or 4 months to learn 3 different types of unit (eg 442s, 313s and 377s which I've chosen as they are so different) then 8 or 9 months route learning. That's the best part of a year done in training at £49,000 in wages alone. 20 experienced drivers would cost the best part of £1million before they turn a wheel on their own. I think Southern are currently well over 120 drivers short.
Southern are pulling all manner of strokes to get this training period down but it usually comes back to bite them on the arse when a new recruit releases the doors on the wrong side or overshoots a station platform or much, much worse - a signal at Danger. They never learn do Southern management

The Merry Prankster · Sep 20, 2016

thedonkeycentrehalf said:
Somewhere, way back in this thread, I posted a link to a Southern press release from December last year which said then that they did not have enough crew to be able to deliver what was then a new timetable.

So, when you don't have enough employees to deliver a service and you are reliant on overtime and good will of those employees you do have to cover the gaps, what sensible company would then choose to start a dispute with their employees and annoy them enough to remove that good will?

A company encouraged by the Government to take on the unions and who are not reliant on ticket revenue for their profits? Just a guess.

Uter · Sep 21, 2016

el punal said:
Thank you for that information. But what a shocking situation to end up in. Whoever is responsible, be it DfT, Southern, Govia or Uncle Tom Cobley, they need shooting (metaphorically, of course).

If this problem was known about months, if not years, ago, why was it not addressed? It is blindingly obvious, from your post, that if there was going to be a desperate shortage of drivers it would lead to the chaos that we have now. What's the point of overseeing a transport system if you have no one to run it?

So I suppose the next logical question, again based on your information, how long would it take to ensure that there enough drivers available to ensure that we have a full, 100%, service in operation?

I don't think that the DfT are by any means wholly responsible, but I do think they are getting rather an easy ride and they are content to sit back and let Govia take all the blame (much of it deserved).

Short answer to your other question is I don't know. I don't work for Southern or TL. There are probably other people on NSC who are better placed to answer that. I think I read they were planning to restore all services by the end of October, but I am not 100% on that. I'd imagine that Seaford services were one of the lowest priority for restoration given the relatively low usage on this line, so I'd take the plan to restore them next week as a sign they are approaching the numbers they need to attempt to run a full service.

Once they reach the required driver numbers I doubt it will mean an end to cancellations of course, because of other well documented issues (industrial relations, ageing signalling, London Bridge works etc.).

And the 2018 timetable means that they will need to keep recruiting, probably at full capacity, for the next few years in order to run all the extra services planned.

BensGrandad · Sep 21, 2016

Brother said last night that he had received an email from the club saying trains should be back to normal on Mon26th Sept what is normal back to the original timetable or revised timetable to take into account the industrial action?

Official Old Man · Sep 21, 2016

My first personal experience of SASTA, Tuesday 20th Sept.
I was at Lewes station waiting, along with maybe a few hundred others, when in rolled our train, the 19:10 to Brighton stopping at Falmer. It was then anounced 'this train will not be stopping at Falmer'. Why the heck not? A platform full of fans, a train going our way and scheduled to stop where we want to get off, so why not just carry on and stop the train. What shocked me was the atitude of everybody around me, just 'Oh well'. Many hooligan fans would have stormed the train and pulled the cord at Falmer, others would have rioted at the station, but no we are Brighton fans stuck with SASTA and resigned to the chaos.

Gazwag · Sep 21, 2016

I remember the good times said:
My first personal experience of SASTA, Tuesday 20th Sept.
I was at Lewes station waiting, along with maybe a few hundred others, when in rolled our train, the 19:10 to Brighton stopping at Falmer. It was then anounced 'this train will not be stopping at Falmer'. Why the heck not? A platform full of fans, a train going our way and scheduled to stop where we want to get off, so why not just carry on and stop the train. What shocked me was the atitude of everybody around me, just 'Oh well'. Many hooligan fans would have stormed the train and pulled the cord at Falmer, others would have rioted at the station, but no we are Brighton fans stuck with SASTA and resigned to the chaos.

Stinks of "get our own back against the general public because the club dared to stand against us"

CHAPPERS · Sep 21, 2016

Anyone know if that train that pulled into Falmer 5 minutes after full time going east waited around for a few minutes?

Ernest · Sep 21, 2016

I remember the good times said:
My first personal experience of SASTA, Tuesday 20th Sept.
I was at Lewes station waiting, along with maybe a few hundred others, when in rolled our train, the 19:10 to Brighton stopping at Falmer. It was then anounced 'this train will not be stopping at Falmer'. Why the heck not? A platform full of fans, a train going our way and scheduled to stop where we want to get off, so why not just carry on and stop the train. What shocked me was the atitude of everybody around me, just 'Oh well'. Many hooligan fans would have stormed the train and pulled the cord at Falmer, others would have rioted at the station, but no we are Brighton fans stuck with SASTA and resigned to the chaos.

One problem, there are NO cords anymore on trains

Uter · Sep 21, 2016

theboybilly said:
I think Southern are currently well over 120 drivers short.
Southern are pulling all manner of strokes to get this training period down but it usually comes back to bite them on the arse when a new recruit releases the doors on the wrong side or overshoots a station platform or much, much worse - a signal at Danger. They never learn do Southern management

Thanks for that. The fact the emergency timetable axed 341 services would support your figure. I am surprised they have managed to restore so many services already given that the training program probably only adds a net gain of 5 or 6 new drivers a month once retirements and resignations are factored in. I can only presume that this is possible because of the a reliance on the continuing good will of staff to extra shifts.

albionite · Sep 21, 2016

Uter said:
Thanks for that. The fact the emergency timetable axed 341 services would support your figure. I am surprised they have managed to restore so many services already given that the training program probably only adds a net gain of 5 or 6 new drivers a month once retirements and resignations are factored in. I can only presume that this is possible because of the a reliance on the continuing good will of staff to extra shifts.

That's more to do with the drivers summer holiday period is over so they can add a few extra trains.

Uter · Sep 21, 2016

albionite said:
That's more to do with the drivers summer holiday period is over so they can add a few extra trains.

Very good point.

Tom Hark Preston Park · Sep 21, 2016

Uter said:
I don't think that the DfT are by any means wholly responsible, but I do think they are getting rather an easy ride and they are content to sit back and let Govia take all the blame (much of it deserved).

Short answer to your other question is I don't know. I don't work for Southern or TL. There are probably other people on NSC who are better placed to answer that. I think I read they were planning to restore all services by the end of October, but I am not 100% on that. I'd imagine that Seaford services were one of the lowest priority for restoration given the relatively low usage on this line, so I'd take the plan to restore them next week as a sign they are approaching the numbers they need to attempt to run a full service.

Once they reach the required driver numbers I doubt it will mean an end to cancellations of course, because of other well documented issues (industrial relations, ageing signalling, London Bridge works etc.).

And the 2018 timetable means that they will need to keep recruiting, probably at full capacity, for the next few years in order to run all the extra services planned.

Sounds pretty much like they're setting themselves - or far more like the company that inherits their crock of shit when they've been finally sacked - to fail in 2018. They sure as hell won't be pumping money into a big money training programme at the expense of short term gains for shareholders and bonuses for directors. Only a nationalised rail company would take the hit on that kind of outlay.

Uter · Sep 21, 2016

Tom Hark said:
Sounds pretty much like they're setting themselves - or far more like the company that inherits their crock of shit when they've been finally sacked - to fail in 2018. They sure as hell won't be pumping money into a big money training programme at the expense of short term gains for shareholders and bonuses for directors. Only a nationalised rail company would take the hit on that kind of outlay.

Depends on how much the franchise agreement specifies they should get penalised for not running a full service doesn't it? If they stand to lose more money by having insufficient drivers to run the full service than it costs to recruit and train them then that would provide an incentive to do so.

I think the franchise agreement contains a force majeure get out clause which Govia have argued applies at the moment ("not us guv, this is down to the previous muppets and those pesky unions") so they are not getting penalised to the full extent allowed by the contract. I think that would be harder to argue in two years times, having had 4 years to get ready.

I think that politics comes into play too. The government aren't going to want to have the embarrassment of a franchise failing so publically again. I think the DfT will be taking a very keen interest in driver numbers in the TSGN region over the next 2 years. I doubt they took any interest at all up until 6 months ago.

Gwylan · Sep 21, 2016

Uter said:
I think that politics comes into play too. The government aren't going to want to have the embarrassment of a franchise failing so publically again.

But the franchise can't fail. Any company that doesn't rely on customers for revenue is in a secure position. It gets paid whether it has one customer or one million - it can't lose

Tom Hark Preston Park · Sep 21, 2016

Uter said:
Depends on how much the franchise agreement specifies they should get penalised for not running a full service doesn't it? If they stand to lose more money by having insufficient drivers to run the full service than it costs to recruit and train them then that would provide an incentive to do so.

I think the franchise agreement contains a force majeure get out clause which Govia have argued applies at the moment ("not us guv, this is down to the previous muppets and those pesky unions") so they are not getting penalised to the full extent allowed by the contract. I think that would be harder to argue in two years times, having had 4 years to get ready.

I think that politics comes into play too. The government aren't going to want to have the embarrassment of a franchise failing so publically again. I think the DfT will be taking a very keen interest in driver numbers in the TSGN region over the next 2 years. I doubt they took any interest at all up until 6 months ago.

So we're agreed then: there will be no major investment in the train drivers required to operate the brave new world of more frequent trains to be introduced in 2018. Which in turn means any new and real improvement won't trickle down until 2020 at the earliest. Jam tomorrow. Same as it ever was.

Official Old Man · Sep 21, 2016

CHAPPERS said:
Anyone know if that train that pulled into Falmer 5 minutes after full time going east waited around for a few minutes?

Nope, left empty. Next train was 42 minutes later and the platform soon filled up. It was a gamble to leave early or wait for extra time!

CHAPPERS · Sep 21, 2016

I remember the good times said:
Nope, left empty. Next train was 42 minutes later and the platform soon filled up. It was a gamble to leave early or wait for extra time!

I thought that might happen. Tossers.

Ernest · Sep 21, 2016

Tom Hark said:
Sounds pretty much like they're setting themselves - or far more like the company that inherits their crock of shit when they've been finally sacked - to fail in 2018. They sure as hell won't be pumping money into a big money training programme at the expense of short term gains for shareholders and bonuses for directors. Only a nationalised rail company would take the hit on that kind of outlay.

Why would THPP Rail Company want to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds training drivers when your franchise only lasts 5 years ? All you're doing is setting up the next company with their resources seeing the time to get a driver fully trained could be 2 years +. So all the train companies have been relying on what they have and sticking plaster management in only recruiting and training staff if they really have to which is why we are where we are.

The idiots who privatised the railways this way (Tory dogma policy = privatisation is right) have made our national resource what it is now.

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