Official Running Thread

Greg Bobkin · Apr 16, 2015

big nuts said:
Just reviewing my years running times between the 2014 & 2015 marathons.

As mentioned in the post above the upper body work has really helped and I've made some significant improvements in all the main distances.

5k - 21:23 - 19:47 - Aim is now sub 19 by end of the year
10k - 48:48 - 42:44 - Aim now Sub 40
Half - 1:44:23 - 1:32:23 - Aim is now sub 1:30:00
Marathon - 3:55:27 - 3:29:22 - Aim is now sub 3:15:00

Going to rest for the remainder of April and then start working towards the new targets.

They are some serious improvements, fella. Well done.

Also, congratulations to everyone else - I'm just catching up with all the marathon chat. I took the easy option with the 10k and rolled in at just under 46 mins. More than a minute slower than I would have liked, and slightly frustrating given the first 5k was bang on 22 mins. Work for another sub-4 marathon at Brighton next year begins now - your experience of upper body and core training has me interested in that. Anything to help get those times down.

Bozza · Apr 16, 2015

big nuts said:
Just reviewing my years running times between the 2014 & 2015 marathons.

As mentioned in the post above the upper body work has really helped and I've made some significant improvements in all the main distances.

5k - 21:23 - 19:47 - Aim is now sub 19 by end of the year
10k - 48:48 - 42:44 - Aim now Sub 40
Half - 1:44:23 - 1:32:23 - Aim is now sub 1:30:00
Marathon - 3:55:27 - 3:29:22 - Aim is now sub 3:15:00

Going to rest for the remainder of April and then start working towards the new targets.

Truly impressive stuff, that - well done!

When you say rest, do you mean no running at all?

I'm at a completely different level to you, but I still feel like I'm overdoing it as I can feel it in my legs every day. Yesterday wasn't a running day for me (Tuesday was and today will be) but I took my bike up over the downs instead, so my legs didn't get the day off they were due.

I'm focusing on weight loss (which should bring associated running performance improvements) but I do wonder if I should be taking more rest.

dazzer6666 · Apr 16, 2015

Bozza said:
Truly impressive stuff, that - well done!

When you say rest, do you mean no running at all?

I'm at a completely different level to you, but I still feel like I'm overdoing it as I can feel it in my legs every day. Yesterday wasn't a running day for me (Tuesday was and today will be) but I took my bike up over the downs instead, so my legs didn't get the day off they were due.

I'm focusing on weight loss (which should bring associated running performance improvements) but I do wonder if I should be taking more rest.

It's a very individual thing, but some rest is vitally important.........taking recent races out of the equation, I am averaging 50-60 miles a week at the moment and I tend to have one 'full' rest day in about 8-10, but that block will also include at least 2 'easy' days where I'll do no more than 30-40 mins at a slow pace (which has no lasting impact at all) or do some cross-training on the bike or elliptical trainer. If you don't rest/have easy days, you'll reduce your ability to do your 'quality' sessions as well as you should and you are far more likely to get injured (particularly overuse injuries like ITB issues, shin splints, PF etc). Less is often more - better quality, fewer miles.........

These explain it quite well - http://www.active.com/running/articles/what-to-do-on-rest-and-recovery-days and http://www.runnersworld.com/running-tips/rest-easy

big nuts · Apr 16, 2015

Bozza said:
Truly impressive stuff, that - well done!

When you say rest, do you mean no running at all?

I'm at a completely different level to you, but I still feel like I'm overdoing it as I can feel it in my legs every day. Yesterday wasn't a running day for me (Tuesday was and today will be) but I took my bike up over the downs instead, so my legs didn't get the day off they were due.

I'm focusing on weight loss (which should bring associated running performance improvements) but I do wonder if I should be taking more rest.

Yes no running for 3 weeks although I will find that tough as used to getting out twice a week covering c. 20 miles in the two runs. If i do run in April it will be short 30 minute runs to keep me ticking over at an easyish pace.

What I've learned is that if I run 3 times a week I might just get away with that, if I run 4 times I almost certainly pick up an injury. Because of this I've concentrated on quality miles and other forms of fitness.

After 4 months out April-Aug last year I decided to set a few challenges to keep things interesting. Rather than run to a distance I would run to a time. My first challenge was to run 8 miles in an hour. I found this really tough and it took me 3 attempts. Looking back this was key in my improvement as the 3 session really pushed me. Once I got my pace up I found it easier to maintain that and could then run 12 miles in 90 and 16 in 120 mins.

I'm going to do the same this year but going for 8.5 miles per hour rather than 8.

Around Nov I started running more hills in prep for the mince pie ten again this helped me massively and looking back I should have done this earlier, so hills will form part of my mid-week run.

One thing I didn't mention was nutrition and weight loss. I've eat really healthily and clean over the past 12 months dropped major piss up's and lost a lot of weight. I'm 13 stone 2 now 5 years ago I was 17.5 (8 inches around the waist dropped). I've heard and can believe every pound you lose is 3 secs gained per mile based on effort required.

I know you mentioned you weren't looking at taking part in races but I would give it some thought as the atmosphere will push you on to performances you didn't think possible. Maybe try park run before a Brighton game I'm sure a Hove based NSC runner will offer you some shower and changing facilities.

You've improved a lot already so keep going and get your body used to running faster. See how quickly you can run a mile that's an interesting one.

knocky1 · Apr 16, 2015

big nuts said:
Just reviewing my years running times between the 2014 & 2015 marathons.

As mentioned in the post above the upper body work has really helped and I've made some significant improvements in all the main distances.

5k - 21:23 - 19:47 - Aim is now sub 19 by end of the year
10k - 48:48 - 42:44 - Aim now Sub 40
Half - 1:44:23 - 1:32:23 - Aim is now sub 1:30:00
Marathon - 3:55:27 - 3:29:22 - Aim is now sub 3:15:00

Going to rest for the remainder of April and then start working towards the new targets.

Enjoy the rest. You deserve it you f*****. It was less than 6 months ago we had the NSC Hove Parkrun Challenge and I finished with Simgull a second behind you and a second under 21 mins.
Since then you have smashed the 5k, beaten me at the Brooks 10k, beaten my years half marathon by 15 minutes, my marathon by 28 minutes. Well done.

As Champion of NSC Parkrun, how about you set the date for the next challenge? April off, 2 weeks easy training, 4-6 weeks to up the pace gets us into June. Which Juneweekend is it for Hove Park?

big nuts · Apr 16, 2015

knocky1 said:
Enjoy the rest. You deserve it you f*****. It was less than 6 months ago we had the NSC Hove Parkrun Challenge and I finished with Simgull a second behind you and a second under 21 mins.
Since then you have smashed the 5k, beaten me at the Brooks 10k, beaten my years half marathon by 15 minutes, my marathon by 28 minutes. Well done.

As Champion of NSC Parkrun, how about you set the date for the next challenge? April off, 2 weeks easy training, 4-6 weeks to up the pace gets us into June. Which Juneweekend is it for Hove Park?

Thanks. The first NSC Park Run challenge was very close, only seconds separating the top 3 from memory. I'm available for only two Saturday's in June the 13th & 20th so happy with either of these if that's convenient for everyone else.

knocky1 · Apr 16, 2015

There will always be someone unable to make it, so it is either the 13th or 20th June.

soistes · Apr 16, 2015

big nuts said:
Just reviewing my years running times between the 2014 & 2015 marathons.

As mentioned in the post above the upper body work has really helped and I've made some significant improvements in all the main distances.

5k - 21:23 - 19:47 - Aim is now sub 19 by end of the year
10k - 48:48 - 42:44 - Aim now Sub 40
Half - 1:44:23 - 1:32:23 - Aim is now sub 1:30:00
Marathon - 3:55:27 - 3:29:22 - Aim is now sub 3:15:00

Going to rest for the remainder of April and then start working towards the new targets.

This kind of improvement is encouraging for relative newcomers like me: I'm just coming up to my first anniversary of starting to run (end of April last year), and so far I've only run in 5k races (parkruns) and two 10k races (Brooks and BM10k). My 5k times have come down from around 28 mins to 23:22 and my 10k times have also improved from 50:38 to 48:23.

The question I have for the experts on here relates to age -- I'm 60 this summer, so it's unclear to me how far I can expect my times to continue to improve, even with serious training and whether the inevitable slowing down with age will offset the effects of training, so that the best I can expect is for my times to plateau, as I continue to train.
If so, should I forget about setting myself time targets (I've been thinking of aiming for 22 mins on the 5k and 46 mins on the 10K this summer), and instead go for some kind of target based on age-graded calculations? My current times would give me around 68-69%, adjusted for age, depending on whether I base it on 5k or 10k times, so maybe I could set a target based on 75%, say, which would then take account of the decline with age?

Bozza · Apr 16, 2015

soistes said:
This kind of improvement is encouraging for relative newcomers like me: I'm just coming up to my first anniversary of starting to run (end of April last year), and so far I've only run in 5k races (parkruns) and two 10k races (Brooks and BM10k). My 5k times have come down from around 28 mins to 23:22 and my 10k times have also improved from 50:38 to 48:23.

The question I have for the experts on here relates to age -- I'm 60 this summer

As well as [MENTION=18183]big nuts[/MENTION] and his tails of weight loss and, frankly, remarkable times your story is also very inspiring.

I can't imagine getting under 50 minutes for 10k (although I shall certainly try in time) but to hear you're doing that when you're nudging 60 is fantastic!

dazzer6666 · Apr 16, 2015

knocky1 said:
There will always be someone unable to make it, so it is either the 13th or 20th June.

Hopefully doing SDW100 on June 13th.....which almost certainly rules me out for 20th as well !

Greg Bobkin · Apr 16, 2015

big nuts said:
Thanks. The first NSC Park Run challenge was very close, only seconds separating the top 3 from memory. I'm available for only two Saturday's in June the 13th & 20th so happy with either of these if that's convenient for everyone else.

knocky1 said:
There will always be someone unable to make it, so it is either the 13th or 20th June.

Whichever week it is, I'll be "Arsenal" and claim 4th place now :lol:

jimhigham · Apr 16, 2015

Thanks to Big Nuts for the advice. Much appreciated. I hadn't even considered upper body strength so that is very useful input.

knocky1 · Apr 16, 2015

soistes said:
This kind of improvement is encouraging for relative newcomers like me: I'm just coming up to my first anniversary of starting to run (end of April last year), and so far I've only run in 5k races (parkruns) and two 10k races (Brooks and BM10k). My 5k times have come down from around 28 mins to 23:22 and my 10k times have also improved from 50:38 to 48:23.

The question I have for the experts on here relates to age -- I'm 60 this summer, so it's unclear to me how far I can expect my times to continue to improve, even with serious training and whether the inevitable slowing down with age will offset the effects of training, so that the best I can expect is for my times to plateau, as I continue to train.
If so, should I forget about setting myself time targets (I've been thinking of aiming for 22 mins on the 5k and 46 mins on the 10K this summer), and instead go for some kind of target based on age-graded calculations? My current times would give me around 68-69%, adjusted for age, depending on whether I base it on 5k or 10k times, so maybe I could set a target based on 75%, say, which would then take account of the decline with age?

I am 55 and having run, on and off, all my life got all PBs in my 30s. In a way your lucky as a newcomer as you can still run your fastest times. I will never beat my 17:45 5k when 35, or my 19:35 5K from when 50. I will do well to beat 20:30 5k by September this year. So I do not age grade but aim for a time that is about achievable for me on the day. Chasing Bignuts shadow is good for that. I would say go for a time.

What I talk About When I Talk About Running by Haruki Murakami describes the ageing process on a runner and is a great book.

Great way to get to your 60th! See you At Hove June 13 or 20.

As Dazzer said the way I can PB is to go Ultra but that looks like too much hard work for me.

Curious Orange · Apr 16, 2015

soistes said:
This kind of improvement is encouraging for relative newcomers like me: I'm just coming up to my first anniversary of starting to run (end of April last year), and so far I've only run in 5k races (parkruns) and two 10k races (Brooks and BM10k). My 5k times have come down from around 28 mins to 23:22 and my 10k times have also improved from 50:38 to 48:23.

The question I have for the experts on here relates to age -- I'm 60 this summer, so it's unclear to me how far I can expect my times to continue to improve, even with serious training and whether the inevitable slowing down with age will offset the effects of training, so that the best I can expect is for my times to plateau, as I continue to train.
If so, should I forget about setting myself time targets (I've been thinking of aiming for 22 mins on the 5k and 46 mins on the 10K this summer), and instead go for some kind of target based on age-graded calculations? My current times would give me around 68-69%, adjusted for age, depending on whether I base it on 5k or 10k times, so maybe I could set a target based on 75%, say, which would then take account of the decline with age?

Wow, that is pretty impressive! You're already running at a pretty good level for a chap your age based on the age grading - I'd be very happy if I was still operating at that sort of level in twenty years time.

So yes, give yourself that target and go for it. You won't have seen all your possible improvement in just one year, so I don't think having that target is unreasonable.

soistes · Apr 16, 2015

Curious Orange said:
Wow, that is pretty impressive! You're already running at a pretty good level for a chap your age based on the age grading - I'd be very happy if I was still operating at that sort of level in twenty years time.

So yes, give yourself that target and go for it. You won't have seen all your possible improvement in just one year, so I don't think having that target is unreasonable.

Thanks -- that's encouraging. I sort of wish I'd started running earlier in my life, although as [MENTION=15605]knocky1[/MENTION] says, it does give me the advantage that I can still run my fastest times as an oldie. I think I might naturally have a physique which suits longer-distance running, as I've always been really skinny (5'10" and never been above 10 stone in my life), so that probably helps. Main issue for me is avoiding injury -- I really went for it on Sunday at the BM10k and I've had a sore ankle all week.

At the risk of being annoying, I have another question for the hardcore runners on here. I've recently started using a Garmin watch for pacing purposes, and I've noticed that most people on here, when reporting their runs and paces, do it in terms of min/mi, whereas I've found a min/km approach more helpful, mainly because with the shorter unit distance, it gives a lot more flexibility, so I can gradually up the pace on a negative split, or do km intervals. What are the pros and cons of a miles vs km approach in training?

soistes · Apr 16, 2015

knocky1 said:
What I talk About When I Talk About Running by Haruki Murakami describes the ageing process on a runner and is a great book.

Yes, someone else recommended this to me; I will try to track it down and give it a read. Cheers

Guinness Boy · Apr 17, 2015

Well, [MENTION=27279]dazzer6666[/MENTION] got it spot on. Pains were gone on Wednesday and I managed a 25 minute easy run. Just back now from a 30 min 5k that included some HILLS and raring to go for a long-ish run on Sunday.

As a reward I've just entered the Worthing 10k

Indurain's Lungs · Apr 17, 2015

soistes said:
What are the pros and cons of a miles vs km approach in training?

I totally understand what you're saying about injury, I have an engine that could seriously ramp up the miles but a chassis that isn't so keen!

I think km v miles is very much personal preference, especially if you're using a gps running watch. I've moved to min/km as I seem to have a threshold around 4min/km - slower is tempo but any faster is very hard work.

Previously it might have depended on how distance markers were placed at target events?

ManOnTheRun · Apr 17, 2015

C e see

Bozza · Apr 17, 2015

I felt a bit despondent out on the road yesterday for the first time. I went out to try and do an evenly paced 7 miles, aiming to hit 9:30 miles. Although I managed to avoid my usual trap of going out far too hard and then trying to hang on, my splits are a very even downward staircase, starting at 8:46 and ending up with a 10:29.

However, looking back at it this morning, I noticed that the GAP times are very consistent for me with my fastest at 9:18 and my slowest at 9:51 meaning I did seem to manage to apply my effort pretty evenly taking into account the hills. My overall pace was 9:34 - right where I was aiming.

Strava also shows I last did that route 2 months ago and yesterday, despite not trying to run it as quickly as I could, I was nearly 10 minutes quicker, which also gives some cheer.

I'm not sure taking my mountain bike up and over the downs on a 'rest day' on Wednesday has done my legs any favours - they are perpetually tired, and I feel it every time I stand. It was a great contrast from my running though - which is very urban with lots of cars. Up on the top of the downs it was just me, and I really enjoyed it, so much so that I'm going to go up there again today, although I won't attack the climbs as hard as I did on Wednesday.

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