TWOCHOICEStom
Well-known member
No tax increase that's idiotic IMO.
Clearer labelling. Let people decide for themselves.
Clearer labelling. Let people decide for themselves.
Got something to say or just want fewer pesky ads? Join us... 😊
Sugar Tax.
- Thread starter Leekbrookgull
- Start date
Indurain's Lungs
Legend of Garry Nelson
Seeing as my entire working life is dedicated to the health of children, I think I'm in a position to comment on it.
Overweight children make overweight adults. Being overweight is not just a personal choice, it leads to increased risk of heart disease, cancer, arthritis, vascular disease and makes you die younger and live a more unhealthy life before that demise. This costs society and, more importantly, the child. Parents can't beat their kids, smoke in a car with them, give them alcohol or neglect them so they can't just decide that being overweight is ok. It's not condemning them it's helping the children.
My conversation with a parent about their overweight child is never about "judging" no more than when I tell them they need to stop smoking when their kid comes into hospital with asthma again. Some parents don't realise, some don't have the tools to change, some don't realise the long term consequences. The only positive hanger comes from engaging them, not telling them off.
Changing things is about using evidence based interventions,there is evidence that sugar tax works. Companies don't pass the tax on, they reduce the sugar and sell at the same price to the end user
You can't "call me out" without producing the evidence. Do you weigh these children, do you see them without their underwear? I do on my job and I see the truth of it - a bit of a tummy on a kid makes them overweight, normal bmi is much lower for young kids than adults and healthy is actually what most people call "stick thin". Overweight is a clinical term based on population means and standard deviations that are the inked to long term adverse outcomes not any one person's opinion.
Yes, I accept that like many things this cannot easily be modelled as a continuum, meaning there are various cut offs, not just thresholds but also, on occasions, contradictions. I suspect we are largely in agreement.
One thing I'm not sure about is what you mean by 'progressive' tax. Is this 'modern and insightful' (which I like) or the old chestnut of charging a higher percentage for the increasingly rich?
My wife and I are probably a stone over our younger fighting weight, my two children are particularly sporting so are in particularly good physical shape, however if they were not I would prefer not to have your uninvited views on what might be better or not for my children in terms of their weight, which no doubt has some insight into those childrens health but is a very one dimensional tool for ones self worth and wellbeing.
In isolation you offer little more than a Slimming World club, so when do you move ever closer to wanting to comment on those children's free time habits, you are unlikely to chance your arm in the private schools, you would get short shrift encouraging them from their own sedate pastimes to something more active so we are back to the perceived poor, uneducated they need saving from the ipad, iphone and playstation, however our posh neighbours chess, train set and homework enthusiasts have worthwhile pastimes so we are back with Chardonaay, Kevin and Sharon.
I dont need to see the children unclothed to comment on their weight, its not my business and it shouldnt be yours either, if someone is visually not fat what else would you like to know and 'educate' them on, just offer the information and help where invited to do so, but let them live, learn and enjoy without your weight assessment regime.
Machiavelli
Well-known member
I mean by a progressive (and I accept this is a loaded term, hence your scare quotes) tax the old-fashioned, redistributive principle whereby those that earn more pay not only more tax but ascending levels on their higher earnings. To update this slightly, it would also entail ensuring that the loopholes exploited by transnational businesses were taken seriously by governments. On this, there's a lot of recent work being done, see especially Gabriel Zucman:
http://gabriel-zucman.eu
It might be that on these tax issues, we start to disagree. Which is OK in my book.
Machiavelli
Well-known member
I think you've got your first sentence the wrong way round. Beyond that, this is spot on. [MENTION=23494]big gull[/MENTION]y has already indicated that he's basing his views on his personal experience of going into schools. In such debates, I always side with the position that you're expressing over anecdotes.
Indurain's Lungs
Legend of Garry Nelson
That's the very definition of "my business"!
I'd be negligent if I wasn't promoting the health of children from all sides. Their post code or household income is of no concern to me, in fact I would be far less sympathetic to those that have been gifted the advantages of middle class than those who are blameless through their own situation.
If your kids were a bit overweight then it would be merely be a matter of mentioning it within the interaction - which would likely be about something else health related as no one is targeting parents for having slightly tubby kids. The lead in would be asking them what they like doing, do they play any sport - finding out from them whether they're active, asking what I an help with.
Children are not possessions and "I know what's best for my kids" attitude is unhelpful in these situations. We, as a profession, are not judging just trying to help.
Trying to be condescending about my "judgement" is ridiculous. This is a tiny but important part of supporting healthy childhood alongside the massive burden of dealing with childhood mental health, life limiting illness, disability, parental mental health concerns, child protection issues and acute illness.
Indurain's Lungs
Legend of Garry Nelson
Thanks.
Machiavelli
Well-known member
You sound like a top health professional. Even if you don't work for it, the NHS has spread great values.
So what other factors do you use in terms of their wellbeing and health, what are your threshold on weight or is it purely visual tubbiness that you target. ??
What targeting a visually tubby kid and asking if they partake in sport and perhaps what are their pastimes ?
Jeeez how do you deduce from that he is a 'top health professional', my local Slimming World leader delves deeper than that and her name is Hilda and shes er well a little bit thick .........
Indurain's Lungs
Legend of Garry Nelson
It's called engaging with a child, ask8ng them what their favourite hobbies are, what they like at school etc. It's called establishing rapport with a family rather than just breezing in and telling someone they're fat.
I am being mischievous, I like a fight but I tend not to use personal insults, so it wasnt aimed at you personally.
It is a swipe at, for me, a set of initiatives that seem demeaning and unnecessary, I will challenge anyone on here to go into there school at some stage and come back and tell me 34% are obese, I find that totally incredible and I spend my working life within schools, so it is a bit more than anecdotal, we cannot comment on BMI or other measures as you or others havent ( I hope ) got enough children to do the necessary tests for those measures and results to be relevant.
Why dont you breeze into the middle classes, see what they think of the initiatives, or is this something exclusively for the thick .........
BMI is a massively flawed system, its nothing more than an OK indicator.
Indurain's Lungs
Legend of Garry Nelson
Fair enough. There's probably a need to clarify the definitions - overweight is being 25-30 bmi in adults whereas obese is over 30. A similar but lower set or parameters apply to children.
There is actually limited evidence that being overweight is too bad apart from leading to being obese.
You've hit on the difficulty on population level problems versus individuals.
Indurain's Lungs
Legend of Garry Nelson
That doesn't make any sense. What's your obsession with class? I don't have a clue of people's backgrounds when I see them in the hospital, it doesn't make a difference.
Children don't care about class and how you interact with them doesn't change dependent on your perception of their social standing.
But if you are not testing the children for their BMI then your definitions are not identifying anything beyond the visual aspect of looking over weight and not, so who without the BMI evaluations of the children and with a set of defining BMI stats do you actually target ??
Its likely you are using the quite reasonable visual indicator, I am sure teachers might depressingly be briefed to perhaps offer an insight to children when they are changing or in their PE lessons.
If as you say there is little evidence that being overweight is too bad, what is exactly your role and mandate to try to effect it then.
Again those that are overly obese is likely to be a far greater complex issue rather than 'do you play sport' or 'what do you do after school' its moved beyond that, into a likely psychological or dysfunctional position that requires greater support than what you are advocating.
Personally I would like to have an 'arm wrestle test' in which we can weed out those weaklings and nerds that are becoming an ever greater menace, think of the benefits, fitter, stronger, healthier and any chubster can smirk at those weaklings and their parents that are too intelligent to even consider encouraging their nerdy kids to do 10 reps of biceps curls each night before bed.
When the state tries to intervene in something as benign as childrens weight, it invariably is on the premise that there is a underlying ignorance to not even know that sugar makes you fat, when in reality everyone does know but might choose to ignore some arbitrary government guideline.
The target seems to shift downstream to the poorest and very likely wouldnt dream of intervention upstream to the middle classes, be honest where do you do most of your uninvited intervention, Whitehawk or Henfiled.
If it is legal and non contaminating then offer the information for sure, but leave it to the parents to make a considered judgement on what actions to take and not to have any uninvited 'health professional' impinge on their life choices.