Milliband promises to increase minimum wage if elected

DavidinSouthampton · Sep 22, 2014

Seagull58 said:
The West Lothian Question was first raised in 1977 by Tam Dalyell. Isn't it time it ws addressed? They've had 37 years to think about it (and the issue has been raised many times in that period) and they should go ahead and sort it out NOW. With greater devolution of powers to the Scottish Assembly the issue should be sorted NOW.

I agree. On the radio 4 news at 1pm, they said this is a problem which has taxed the finest political minds for years. It is not simple or straightforward. I am NOT saying it doesn't need to be sorted. All I am saying is that it is wrong to tie it up with the things that need to be done for Scotland devolutionary stuff so that the promises made by all three party leaders to Scotland can be kept.

Tying this in with that would either risk delaying the fulfilment of those promises, or rushing through possibly botched solutions to what EVERYONE seems to agree is a difficult question.

Deleted member 22389 · Sep 22, 2014

Buzzer said:
Totally agree. Zero hour contracts have set back workers' rights decades. They should be made illegal.

Their going to back to my grandfathers time. In his day they just used to let people go, no explanation. The only difference is you could walk over the road and get another job, people are not afforded such luxury these days.

Buzzer · Sep 22, 2014

bashlsdir said:
There going to back to my grandfathers time. In his day they just used to let people go, no explanation. The only difference is you could walk over the road and get another job, people are not afforded such luxury these days.

It's effectively bonded slavery. I can't remember off the top of my head the employer who does the catering and cleaning at the Royal Sussex Hospital but all new minimum wage workers are on this. But what's even worse is that written into this zero hour contract is that the employee opts out of the maximum 48-hour working week directive.

Firstly, how many employees are aware of this rule, secondly, why is this written into a zero hour contract? The employees are absolutely shafted. It's bonded slavery. What power does an employee have? It should be a matter for national shame and should be outlawed.

Deleted member 22389 · Sep 22, 2014

Buzzer said:
It's effectively bonded slavery. I can't remember off the top of my head the employer who does the catering and cleaning at the Royal Sussex Hospital but all new minimum wage workers are on this. But what's even worse is that written into this zero hour contract is that the employee opts out of the maximum 48-hour working week directive.

Firstly, how many employees are aware of this rule, secondly, why is this written into a zero hour contract? The employees are absolutely shafted. It's bonded slavery. What power does an employee have? It should be a matter for national shame and should be outlawed.

It's a bloody disgrace considering how important it is to make sure hospitals are kept clean. These people should be on a proper contract of employment. You know this is something you could bring up with your local MP about. There have been enough cases of hospital bugs.
I suppose If you treat people like shit, you get shit back.

beorhthelm · Sep 22, 2014

Buzzer said:
Totally agree. Zero hour contracts have set back workers' rights decades. They should be made illegal.

what about where they are useful, where they benefit the worker as much as the employer? some regulation might well be in order, but to make them illegal would result in many jobs losses and people unable to find part-time work to suit their schedules.

Buzzer · Sep 22, 2014

beorhthelm said:
what about where they are useful, where they benefit the worker as much as the employer? some regulation might well be in order, but to make them illegal would result in many jobs losses and people unable to find part-time work to suit their schedules.

I don't think it would lead to job losses. The jobs wouldn't go away, they still need to be done and on minimum wage and most workers already work either part of full-time. What making it illegal would prevent is the employer being able to dangle the threat of no pay next week unless they work at the whim of the employer. Also, employees can take holidays safe in the knowledge that time off for sickness or holiday won't be penalised.

Part-time workers would still work part-time too, wouldn't they? Zero hour contracts haven't opened the door to swathes of workers unable to find part-time jobs previously, IMO either and closing it doesn't stop an employer from having part-time workers working odd hours. They are unnecessary and the fact that we have millions of the lowest-paid, most vulnerable workers caught in this trap is disgusting for a country like the UK in the 21st century.

Bingo · Sep 22, 2014

Any increase would be disastrous for many small businesses as they struggle to compete with the big fish. I used to run a small chain of Kids clothing shops in Surrey and the staffing costs amongst other things made it impossible to make ends meet.

clippedgull · Sep 22, 2014

Dorset Seagull said:
The interesting thing about all this is that every single business has grown through somebody ( Business owner ) generally taking a big risk in life. This often then results in somebody else ( Worker ) moaning about his lot and moaning about the risk taker who has provided him with the employment in the first place. Perhaps if the worker is so unhappy with his lot then he should take a few risks and start his own business and he could then employ people that could moan about him.

The simple fact of the matter is that the business owner will generally make more than the worker as a reward for taking the risks required so that everyone could be employed in the first place.

I know this is a very simplistic view but there is a lot of truth in it.

But it's possible that the 'business' owner had family money behind them (still a calculated risk) and the employee who wishes to branch out may not have that 'luxury'.

Again, a simplistic comment.

Dorset Seagull · Sep 22, 2014

clippedgull said:
But it's possible that the 'business' owner had family money behind them (still a calculated risk) and the employee who wishes to branch out may not have that 'luxury'.

Again, a simplistic comment.

Fair play but in my experience its bank loans etc that underpin the start of a business and that type of loan needs a guarantee of some kind. This is generally something like a property/mortgage which means the risk involved for the business owner can be quite a serious undertaking so I think any rewards should be viewed with this in mind.

I agree your average Joe Bloggs may not have anything of worth to guarantee a loan against, however, there are other options like franchises etc and support from government grants. Also those that do have family money behind them don't necessarily have to risk it so in the end more people than the business owner do actually benefit from the risks that he takes. This often seems to be forgotten when the worker feels hard done by.

beorhthelm · Sep 22, 2014

Buzzer said:
...They are unnecessary and the fact that we have millions of the lowest-paid, most vulnerable workers caught in this trap is disgusting for a country like the UK in the 21st century.

they are necessary if you want flexible staffing, because employment law says otherwise you have to give people contracts with prescribed hours, i.e. when they start and finish. as an employer you might not need people in then, and might need people in at other times when there not enough contracted. you consider that one of the biggest users of zero hours are the public sector, councils and such, so this isn't about nasty corporations.

Herr Tubthumper · Sep 22, 2014

beorhthelm said:
they are necessary if you want flexible staffing, because employment law says otherwise you have to give people contracts with prescribed hours, i.e. when they start and finish. as an employer you might not need people in then, and might need people in at other times when there not enough contracted. you consider that one of the biggest users of zero hours are the public sector, councils and such, so this isn't about nasty corporations.

This doesn't wash with me. If you run a business you should have an idea of how much resource you need, peaks and troughs etc, and you plan accordingly with full and part-time contacts with guaranteed minimum hours. There is still plenty of flexibility to be had within this.

Similar to my thoughts on the minimum wage if you cannot plan your staff then maybe business isn't for you? It seems to me businessmen want their cake and to eat it and it's the low paid who are suffering for it.

looney · Sep 22, 2014

beorhthelm said:
they are necessary if you want flexible staffing, because employment law says otherwise you have to give people contracts with prescribed hours, i.e. when they start and finish. as an employer you might not need people in then, and might need people in at other times when there not enough contracted. you consider that one of the biggest users of zero hours are the public sector, councils and such, so this isn't about nasty corporations.

One of the problems with this is that the workers are expected to be available if no work is given. What kind of business would try and pull that on other businesses? "We dont want to buy from you atm but you cant sell to anyone else". This is restrictive trade and imo those companies deserve to be "undercut" by other companies, all this cheap foreign labour though makes the race to the bottom inevitable.

Herr Tubthumper · Sep 22, 2014

looney said:
all this cheap foreign labour though makes the race to the bottom inevitable.

Cheap labour will not exist if the min wage is increased.

looney · Sep 22, 2014

Herr Tubthumper said:
Cheap labour will not exist if the min wage is increased.

Oh I think it will, as will surplus labour the unemployed. Your first problem is refering to an hourly rate as a wage. Your next problem would be how to deal with "in leu" payments.

The only sure way to protect workers vis bosses is to restrict the supply of labour, and visa versa.

beorhthelm · Sep 22, 2014

Herr Tubthumper said:
This doesn't wash with me. If you run a business you should have an idea of how much resource you need, peaks and troughs etc, and you plan accordingly with full and part-time contacts with guaranteed minimum hours. There is still plenty of flexibility to be had within this.

many large organisations cant manage resources in the short term with sickness, holiday, parental leave to cover. this isnt about business, ~30% of healthcare and eduction are on zero hours. example, the NHS pools nurses who are available for short notice cover. organisations or businesses which put on irregular or seasonal events dont know until near the time numbers needed or available. it is effectivly in-sourcing agencies, i dont hear saying agency work should be illegal. minimum contracts might seem a good idea, but set them to what? if you dont need those hours worked you have an extra, unnecessary cost.

looney said:
One of the problems with this is that the workers are expected to be available if no work is given. What kind of business would try and pull that on other businesses?

thats an example of bad practice, and this is my point - address how zero hours are applied, not throw out something because some abuse it. those employers would abuse minimum hours in the same way.

Herr Tubthumper · Sep 23, 2014

beorhthelm said:
many large organisations cant manage resources in the short term with sickness, holiday, parental leave to cover. this isnt about business, ~30% of healthcare and eduction are on zero hours. example, the NHS pools nurses who are available for short notice cover. organisations or businesses which put on irregular or seasonal events dont know until near the time numbers needed or available.

Plenty of industries have similar staffing conundrums though. Aviation has all the issues you mention but I'm sure the majority of their pilots, cabin crew and ground staff have regular contracts. The reason many businesses get away with it is simply because they can.

Deleted member 22389 · Sep 23, 2014

looney said:
One of the problems with this is that the workers are expected to be available if no work is given. What kind of business would try and pull that on other businesses? "We dont want to buy from you atm but you cant sell to anyone else". This is restrictive trade and imo those companies deserve to be "undercut" by other companies, all this cheap foreign labour though makes the race to the bottom inevitable.

I forgot who told me, but yes someone on zero hour contract is not allowed to seek other work, when there is no work. What sort of country are we living in these days where agencies and employers can treat people like this. I had one stint with a job agency about 12 years ago, it was an absolute disgrace how people got treated.

Arkwright · Sep 23, 2014

Running a small business I would love to pay myself £8 per hour let alone a member of staff.

How can a small business be expected to pay £8 per hour say on a Saturday afternoon when I'm watching the Albion when we might not even make £8 profit during that period. If this is enforced I can only see small business laying staff off as it is not profitable.

Give small business a tax break and give us the opportunity to employ staff.

Deleted member 22389 · Sep 23, 2014

Arkwright said:
Running a small business I would love to pay myself £8 per hour let alone a member of staff.

How can a small business be expected to pay £8 per hour say on a Saturday afternoon when I'm watching the Albion when we might not even make £8 profit during that period. If this is enforced I can only see small business laying staff off as it is not profitable.

Give small business a tax break and give us the opportunity to employ staff.

Self employed people are some of the lowest paid people in this country. Labour are a joke, people like Millipede, Balls and Chukka have been kept in their bubbles and pretty much moved straight in to politics. I really don't feel they are in any position to start telling us what to do, number one because the policies are really no different to what the Tories are already doing, and number two the mess that party made last time they where in power. Country needs a change, it needs a brand new direction. Millipede says he needs 10 years to sort the country out, imagine 10 years of another Labour government after last time, no thanks.

Herr Tubthumper · Sep 23, 2014

bashlsdir said:
I forgot who told me, but yes someone on zero hour contract is not allowed to seek other work, when there is no work. What sort of country are we living in these days where agencies and employers can treat people like this. I had one stint with a job agency about 12 years ago, it was an absolute disgrace how people got treated.

This. As [MENTION=5200]Buzzer[/MENTION] said it is bonded slavery.

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