Homophobia in football - BBC news article

Billy the Fish · Aug 18, 2017

Triggaaar said:
I really hope you're right, but I wonder if you've started to believe the rest of the country is like Sussex. I'm pretty sure there are clubs whose fans (by and large) are so backward that they would still chant abuse against a gay player. We'd need the media and police to help stop it.

The obvious ones are Millwall, West Ham and any club in Yorkshire.

Billy the Fish · Aug 18, 2017

Braggfan said:
In regards to less obvious homophobia or banter as some people would refer to it.

I remember working in a supermarket years ago, and there was a transgender customer who came in a few times a week. I was only about 18 but I remember being shocked that members of the public and staff were so openly rude to her. When asked where something was, some staff would reply “over there mate”. I regularly heard people refer to her in a masculine tense or sometimes as “it”. I mean how hard is to offer another human being the tiniest bit of respect by referring to them as her or she.

Now this might not seem like a big deal to a lot of people, but what struck me about this was that this woman had come to do her shopping and that’s how she was treated. It was a safe bet that if something as mundane as shopping brought out that behaviour in people, that she must have got that everywhere she went. I remember thinking how brave she was that she was living her life how she wanted to, knowing full well that other people would either abuse her or at best not understand her and not be able to afford her very simple respect.

When you reflect on that for a moment and then think about the fact that 40% of transgender women have reported making a suicide attempt it makes you realise how hard it must be living with those kind if attitudes and how sad it is that this is massively misunderstood in society. When you look at that across the whole spectrum of LGBT it puts in perspective that what some sections of society would call “banter”, is easily just be another example of society pointing out to you that they don’t understand you, or dislike you.

That’s why it’s important that as club we stand up to it. That’s why I think we should have an LGBT supporters group. If we as a club want to say, we are one group, that we stand shoulder to shoulder with each other regardless or race, religion, sexuality then we should have groups to recognise those parts of our support. It would certainly be something all fans could be proud of.

All of what you've described is pretty nasty and personal stuff, I don't think anyone would describe it as banter.

*Edit*

This just made me remember that there's a transgender woman who's a regular in the North stand. I've never seen anyone bat an eyelid.

Buzzer · Aug 18, 2017

It is a difficult one to answer - should there be LGBT groups within clubs? One of my best mates is an Arsenal STH, his boyfriend is an Albion STH and both are quite adamant that they wouldn't join an Arsenal or Brighton group but say they respect and understand why others would.

Personally, I think it's fantastic that clubs like Palace and Millwall have them because as 2 of our biggest rivals (I know Millwall aren't really rivals but we've played each other so often that the games always have more than an edge to them) they are probably the most vociferous with the homophobic abuse. To have a gay Palace fan tell other straight fans that they aren't happy with the abuse and explaining why has made people stop and think. The powers that be are taking it seriously now and bit by bit it's becoming less acceptable. In time I hope there is no need for these groups to exist but as I say, I can see a need for them right now. I also think it great news that the biggest clubs also now have and support gay groups. It is helping to bring the issue to the fore.

As for the defence that it's only banter, it's using someone's inherent characteristic as a stick to beat them with. There was a time when I was okay with my 2 sons describing things that they thought were lame as 'gay'. Not anymore. As [MENTION=14365]Thunder Bolt[/MENTION] has said, a Withdean regular that I knew to say hello to, no longer even follows Brighton because of abuse she received from fellow Brighton fans so let's not pretend that we've got the moral high ground here.

Just gonna leave the debate with this fantastic picture from last year's World Cup. Russian fans deciding on what slogan to have on their minibus:

"What slogan we having?"
"To France With Love"
"There's men in France. Sounds a bit gay"
"Good point. We'll clarify"

Gazwag · Aug 18, 2017

Banter - that is probably the word I hate the most in the English language

Garage_Doors · Aug 18, 2017

BBC are running a "Homophobia in football: How LGBT fans' groups are changing opinions"

All based on Liz Costa notes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40846848

Seagull1989 · Aug 18, 2017

I have to say a lot of the chants are just picking on the sterotype of Brighton with chants like does your boyfriend know you're here ?

However , there was an occasion a group of Reading fans on the train who were singing , " Don't be so negative , HIV positive ".

Aside from it being a ridiculous chant , I thought it crossed the line and was really out of order.

Franks Wild Years · Aug 18, 2017

Buzzer said:
It is a difficult one to answer - should there be LGBT groups within clubs? One of my best mates is an Arsenal STH, his boyfriend is an Albion STH and both are quite adamant that they wouldn't join an Arsenal or Brighton group but say they respect and understand why others would.

Personally, I think it's fantastic that clubs like Palace and Millwall have them because as 2 of our biggest rivals (I know Millwall aren't really rivals but we've played each other so often that the games always have more than an edge to them) they are probably the most vociferous with the homophobic abuse. To have a gay Palace fan tell other straight fans that they aren't happy with the abuse and explaining why has made people stop and think. The powers that be are taking it seriously now and bit by bit it's becoming less acceptable. In time I hope there is no need for these groups to exist but as I say, I can see a need for them right now. I also think it great news that the biggest clubs also now have and support gay groups. It is helping to bring the issue to the fore.

As for the defence that it's only banter, it's using someone's inherent characteristic as a stick to beat them with. There was a time when I was okay with my 2 sons describing things that they thought were lame as 'gay'. Not anymore. As [MENTION=14365]Thunder Bolt[/MENTION] has said, a Withdean regular that I knew to say hello to, no longer even follows Brighton because of abuse she received from fellow Brighton fans so let's not pretend that we've got the moral high ground here.

Top post Sir.

Thunder Bolt · Aug 18, 2017

Garage_Doors said:
All based on Liz Costa notes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40846848

Do you really think it was just her notes and why roll your eyes? She went to every single game, and went to the bother of collating what we heard. I reported some of it as well. Homosexuals are not paedophiles, but some of the chants and comments after the game, suggested they were.
Some of the chants were vulgar, even obscene, but you roll your eyes because it's Liz.

That says far more about you.

Nixonator · Aug 18, 2017

I can't understand the need for 'groups' as that surely that just segregates and defeats the point of it all.

Isn't the idea that we're all supposed to blend into a diverse society? For that reason I hope the albion never form one.

Kalimantan Gull · Aug 18, 2017

Petee said:
I really don't see any issue in the 'does your boyfriend know you're here' and 'we can see you holding hands' chants. It is just stereotypical for our city. Just like chanting to northerners about benefits, Leeds fans about Savile, Liverpool fans about stealing car stereos etc.

nickbrighton said:
and this is what we are discussing- You, and many others, don't see what the issue is. THATS the issue, the fact that so many people do not understand that casual anti gay references are very damaging to those who happen to be gay. Just like the "that's so gay" expression , its horrible to keep being told by perfectly nice people , who just have no understanding that what they are saying and doing is actually saying there is something wrong with you. The effect that this has on us is actually indescribable, and to have that shouted at you by several thousand people all at once is truly intimidating.

I have to admit I've kinda enjoyed receiving the 'does your boyfriend know your here' chants because it then gives us a chance to respond with the various 'witty' chants back that we've developed over the years, which I take as us showing there is no issue at all, that we're not ignorant or bigoted like them, and that we're one big Brighton family. Am I wrong to, in your opinion? I don't know, do gay Brighton fans enjoy being part of our crowd doing that, or still hate it regardless, or even find the - here's that word again - banter amusing?

Buzzer · Aug 19, 2017

Well...today was a trip back in time. Not seen and heard so much casual homophobia at an away game in years. I was expecting it at some of the PL clubs that we haven't played in decades but not so much at Leicester. I suspect that the message will get across quite quickly as it did in the Championship with fans being ejected and banned for homophobic abuse but I think we can expect more of the same for a little while yet.

Buzzer · Aug 20, 2017

Fair play to the Leicester fan who made a stand.

https://www.facebook.com/chrisrwhiting/posts/10212059301949438

And PC Balkham reporting that an arrest was made. I think the person involved could find themselves in a world of trouble now. They could be facing a conviction for what is now a hate crime and almost certainly a lengthy ban by the club. I'm sure the police will want to chuck the book at him and swiftly as an early warning to others. Silly, silly boy.

Thunder Bolt · Aug 20, 2017

Leicester has always been bad for obscene chants. A poster rolled his eyes at the BBC report mentioning Liz and her notes, but that was the evidence the report needed. Several of us wrote down the chants we had heard, and sent the list to the relevant club after a match.
Letters were sent to each club before the match pointing out that homophobic chants were illegal, but quite often when we pointed out chants to a steward, it was a shrug of the shoulders. We often got clubs writing back saying they hadn't got a problem.
The list noted the exact chant and the time it happened during the game. That's how we collated the evidence.
I remember Leicester being particularly bad even when Sarah was still with us.

goldstone · Aug 20, 2017

Petee said:
I really don't see any issue in the 'does your boyfriend know you're here' and 'we can see you holding hands' chants. It is just stereotypical for our city. Just like chanting to northerners about benefits, Leeds fans about Savile, Liverpool fans about stealing car stereos etc.

They were fun. I miss them.

essbee1 · Aug 20, 2017

The main problem is that most of the the stewards think it's ok themselves. So what hope when we have those neanderthals
"in charge"

sussex_guy2k2 · Aug 20, 2017

Nixonator said:
I can't understand the need for 'groups' as that surely that just segregates and defeats the point of it all.

Isn't the idea that we're all supposed to blend into a diverse society? For that reason I hope the albion never form one.

The reason is simple - educating those with ignorant views.

You're right, in an ideal world, such segregation of sections of society should never happen, but it does. That's why certain groups within society are still the focus of such ignorant chanting. The best way to eradicate that is by educating people to show that the minority group are really just the same as the rest of us.

Whitechapel · Aug 20, 2017

essbee1 said:
The main problem is that most of the the stewards think it's ok themselves. So what hope when we have those neanderthals
"in charge"

This.

I mentioned the homophobic abuse to a steward quite early on and he told me shut up, watch the game and to stop watching the Leicester fans.

Piss poor stewarding,

Thunder Bolt · Aug 20, 2017

essbee1 said:
The main problem is that most of the the stewards think it's ok themselves. So what hope when we have those neanderthals
"in charge"

Whitechapel said:
This.

I mentioned the homophobic abuse to a steward quite early on and he told me shut up, watch the game and to stop watching the Leicester fans.

Piss poor stewarding,

Maybe you could remember the steward's number & email Leicester with it. It isn't grassing, but until we, as fans, stand up to such attitudes, it won't change.

essbee1 · Aug 20, 2017

Thunder Bolt said:
Maybe you could remember the steward's number & email Leicester with it. It isn't grassing, but until we, as fans, stand up to such attitudes, it won't change.

Yeah - but all they'd say is that they didn't hear it - case closed.

The other problem with stewards is that (apart from condoning the abuse in many cases - and I've seen it at loads of lower-league grounds
where I've traveled with the Albion) - a lot are merely youngsters who are getting paid piss-poor to do a shit job and quite frankly are
not bothered/can't be arsed/don't get paid to police this etc. etc ........Also - what reprisals would they face if they did act? For some it's their
source of income and they need the job.

So we have a group of stewards who a) don't care b) actually think it's ok c) are too scared to
do anything.

Thunder Bolt · Aug 20, 2017

They should be told it is breaking ground regulations.
It is being discussed more & more now, and tv documentaries are highlighting it. Every step is one step further.
Shrugging your shoulders & not trying will not stop it. I probably feel strongly about it, because a friend of mine has stopped going to the Amex because of abuse.

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Homophobia in football - BBC news article

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