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[Misc] The NHS

What should we do with the NHS?

  • Privatise it

    Votes: 29 16.2%
  • Keep it in the political system

    Votes: 150 83.8%

  • Total voters
    179


Blue3

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2014
5,559
Lancing
It's the single greatest achievement this country has ever made and one which must be fought tooth and nail to remain within public ownership just think of all the things we have lost to privatisation gone from public ownership into the hands of the proffer tearing private corporate world

This Tory Government is systematically dismantling the NHS ready for when Brexit is complete and a new trade deal with the USA is in place we will be dazzled by the shinny glitz but beware as not all that glitters is gold
 


portslade seagull

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2003
17,588
portslade
The government is and has been subsidising the rail companies since de-nationalisation... I thought that sort of thing was YOUR dream, privatise something and push the costs on to the company running it ? Seems a bit odd to sell it off then effectively " bribe " private companies to run things ? oh, but still make money for their shareholders !

Yes but the costs of those supposed bribes would be nowhere near the costs of your utopian dream of re-nationlisation of everything. Which has been costed and will be 6.5k per taxpayer or more depending how far they go
 


Technohead

Active member
Aug 10, 2013
191
Burgess Hill
View attachment 93318

The NHS is a fantastic organisation,but way too large to be run properly.The logistics side should be national,the care provision regional,with proper central funding from National Insurance contributions set at a level to provide the care needed.Core principle is health care provision and all current political parties have cocked it up.Time to set up an NHS Party!

The logistics was at one stage national, in the form of the NHS Logistics Authority, but then the Labour government privatised it in 2006.
 


Two Professors

Two Mad Professors
Jul 13, 2009
7,617
Multicultural Brum
Quite frankly,I found your manner aggressive,try being civil yourself.I explained my definition and asked you for your idea,but you didn't respond,which leads me to think of several posters on here with multiple accounts.These posters have little in the way of manners and contribute the sum of sod-all.Please point me towards any post of yours on this thread that does.Oh,and by the way FYI,a sock-puppet is somebody who likes to hide their normal site activity behind a fake identity,a coward.
 


vegster

Sanity Clause
May 5, 2008
27,867
Yes but the costs of those supposed bribes would be nowhere near the costs of your utopian dream of re-nationlisation of everything. Which has been costed and will be 6.5k per taxpayer or more depending how far they go

Excellent research, perhaps you can tell me how much per taxpayer has been spent on quantative easing too ?

Edit : Those " So called " bribes are effectively taxpayers money down the drain or to the happy shareholders in France, Germany and Holland. You don't buy a dog then bark yourself.
 




midnight_rendezvous

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2012
3,737
The Black Country
It's the single greatest achievement this country has ever made and one which must be fought tooth and nail to remain within public ownership just think of all the things we have lost to privatisation gone from public ownership into the hands of the proffer tearing private corporate world

This Tory Government is systematically dismantling the NHS ready for when Brexit is complete and a new trade deal with the USA is in place we will be dazzled by the shinny glitz but beware as not all that glitters is gold

This. Every single day of the week. The purposeful mismanagement and underfunding of the NHS in order to sway public opinion re privatisation is a farce. May can take her false apologies and stick them where the sun doesn’t shine.

 


drew

Drew
Oct 3, 2006
23,008
Burgess Hill
Why call me ignorant?

Because you posted saying you felt only one in five employees were clinical which was clearly wrong. By all means take the view that we should have a private healthcare system but at least argue it based on facts.

There are people working with my girlfriend, 'consultants'. earning 1k a day.

Firstly, I'd be surprised if consultants are discussing their pay!! However even if they are, pay for NHS consultants is between £76k and £103K per year. If he's earning £1k a day then that will include his private work or they are a locum working for an agency rather than in the direct employ of the NHS.

Your political allegiance is known, but to be fair don't all parties make this boast when in power? The health system certainly needs more cash and folk might have to be prepared to pay a lot more; the issue is what future system would make best use of the resources.

I think you will find it's easy to determine the political persuasion of most of the posters on this thread. I think most people would be willing to pay more for a viable NHS, probably even including tax rises. Unfortnately, those decisions are taken by politicians that don't actually use the service the same as us!

It is not free, so many get this so wrong.

Free at the point of delivery. Nothing is free, we all know that.

Reduce the use of agency nurses, or reduce the cost of agency nurses?

Surely the question is why do we need so many agency nurses in the first place. Answer probably is that they don't like working under the pressure of the NHS. As an agency nurse they have more control over their hours. So perhaps we should be training more nurses rather than less so that working conditions are better and people don't leave. Recent headlines were that one in ten nurses were leaving the NHS, probably in most cases to work for agencies.

It's like budget day isn't it? They take a percentage off your tax and increase VAT, so you don't actually get any concession. Petrol has gone up 3p in the pumps in the past week and if you have a big f'ck off car that's a lot of money, no-one moans, except to themselves. The NHS has a new high in inpatients and emergencies and we sit here, healthy, shrugging our shoulders. What's if it was us? We'd want them like yesterday? Wouldn't we? People die, it happens, but I wonder how many could be saved if we weren't so inefficient.

Exactly what are you measuring these so called inefficiencies against? According to this they aren't doing too badly compared to others.

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/public...ction-questions-nhs-international-comparisons


If there are two poorly run hospitals in B&H then a third and maybe a fourth would be built, because a new well run hospital is needed and will be successful. When it is successful the other two poorly run hospitals which nobody uses anymore go bust and become flats. Circle of life.

If our current hospital building record in this country seems slow and inflexible, I'd suggest that might be because they are publicly managed operations, business tends to be a lot more efficient and flexible than government.

Btw, according to the Argus there are 10 hospitals in Brighton & Hove.
http://www.theargus.co.uk/li/hospitals.in.Brighton and Hove/

Your knowledge of the local area is not good! The list includes Lewes! Southlands in Shoreham is pretty much just a walk in clinic, not the hospital it used to be. The Royal Alex, RSCH and the Eye hospital are pretty much the same site, just different depts. Aldrington specialises in childrens mental health and similar and I think Mill View is similar for Adults.

So whilst your link shows 10, that doesn't mean you have a choice of service providers for any condition. By all means have your surgery at the private Montifiore and Nuffield f*ck it up you'll end up in the intensive care at the RSCH, provided they have a spare bed!

And that's where the money gets wasted. Top heavy management and not enough foot soldiers. No amount of money will correct this. Needs an independent think tank excluding all political parties to do a drains up

And your evidence? As I posted earlier, in 2014 50.6 per cent of NHS employees are professionally qualified clinical staff. A further 26.0 per cent provide support to clinical staff in roles such as nursing assistant practitioners, nursing assistant/auxiliaries and healthcare assistants.
 


Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patreon
Jul 11, 2003
59,208
The Fatherland
A market is either free or it's not. You can't have "a touch of pregnancy" and you can't have a free market which is a "little bit free". It's not a free market, period.

I’m not sure of your point here. In absolute and pure terms nothing in the UK is a free market. But I think it’s fair to say most people will view certain less restricted areas of the UK’s economy as “free.”
 




PILTDOWN MAN

Well-known member
NSC Patreon
Sep 15, 2004
18,608
Hurst Green
It should be run politically by a cross party department with full involvement of NHS business management devoid of party politics and any decision in the house determined by a free vote without whips. A "taxation" determined by this department should be raised irrelevant of income/ni decisions. Private health should pay a levy for the training given to their consultants by the NHS.

And I'm certainly not Labour by the way!
 


drew

Drew
Oct 3, 2006
23,008
Burgess Hill
It should be run politically by a cross party department with full involvement of NHS business management devoid of party politics and any decision in the house determined by a free vote without whips. A "taxation" determined by this department should be raised irrelevant of income/ni decisions. Private health should pay a levy for the training given to their consultants by the NHS.

And I'm certainly not Labour by the way!

Wouldn't disagree with that although the caveat would be that the incumbent government have to pay what is requested.
 


Two Professors

Two Mad Professors
Jul 13, 2009
7,617
Multicultural Brum
I fail see see what my post count has to do with anything, because I do not have '000's of posts of crap (not saying all yours are full of crap) then my knowledge can be dismissed. I also do not know what a "sock-puppet" is, probably some derogatory youth term, so thank you. So an "NHS doctor" is employed by the NHS where as a private doctor is self-employed or works as part of a health proving organisation (large or small)? And by "NHS Doctor" are you referencing a General Practitioner?

Please be civil, I have no agenda, just trying to understand what you think the difference is between NHS and Private.

Post 164 was answer to this but the quote facility didn't work for some reason.Your low post count and lack of civility make me think I probably won't bother replying to you in future,but you could prove me wrong by posting something meaningful.
 




cunning fergus

Well-known member
Jan 18, 2009
4,744
It's the single greatest achievement this country has ever made and one which must be fought tooth and nail to remain within public ownership just think of all the things we have lost to privatisation gone from public ownership into the hands of the proffer tearing private corporate world

This Tory Government is systematically dismantling the NHS ready for when Brexit is complete and a new trade deal with the USA is in place we will be dazzled by the shinny glitz but beware as not all that glitters is gold


Your bigoted political position shines through unvarnished here doesn’t it?

Had we not had Brexit the NHS was almost certainly going to be privatised via TTIP, as supported by leader of the Capitalist Free World, the President of the US..............yep, that’s Saint Obama.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...unior-doctors-strike-obama-isds-a7001691.html

I know you will say, “but that doesn’t mean TTIP would cover the venerable old NHS”.

We will never know, but what we do know is that the EU is ideologically for big business and not state assets; moving forward any “trade deal” will be conducted in full scrutiny of MPs in the HOP and our media not in secret as is the MO of the EU..

There you go, another positive of Brexit...............I’m sure I made the same point on the Brexit thread before I was removed from the discussion, so thanks for letting me pop down memory lane.
 


D

Deleted member 22389

Guest
We should all stump up more money to use it. A fiver or tenner a month, I think most people would be happy to pay it if they knew that money was only going to run the NHS. I would also remove all politics from the NHS completely, there are too many activists, there is too much scaremongering and none of us are getting truth. The NHS should not be used as a tool to win votes for your political party.
 


Hampster Gull

New member
Dec 22, 2010
13,462
It's the single greatest achievement this country has ever made and one which must be fought tooth and nail to remain within public ownership just think of all the things we have lost to privatisation gone from public ownership into the hands of the proffer tearing private corporate world

What do you feel you have to preserve what was designed in the 1940s?
 






Sussex Nomad

Well-known member
Aug 26, 2010
18,185
EP
Working in the the NHS on the "frontline" as you call it I can assure you that it will not be better if put into private hands. We already have plenty of private sector involvement, the vast majority of which cherry pick the income generating services and leave the NHS to pick up the costly ones, such as A&E services, ITU, etc. Where you have private sector provision, other than supplementing extra capacity, inevitably it is brought back into NHS organisation over time because they just dont provide cost effective high quality care. A case in point is the Orthopaedic Treatment Centre at Haywards Heath which for 5 years was run by a private company, but when the contract came back up for tender was rapidly brought back in house.

All the more reason to bring it into check and give it to someone that isn't going to drain us.
 


Sussex Nomad

Well-known member
Aug 26, 2010
18,185
EP
Because you posted saying you felt only one in five employees were clinical which was clearly wrong. By all means take the view that we should have a private healthcare system but at least argue it based on facts.



Firstly, I'd be surprised if consultants are discussing their pay!! However even if they are, pay for NHS consultants is between £76k and £103K per year. If he's earning £1k a day then that will include his private work or they are a locum working for an agency rather than in the direct employ of the NHS.



I think you will find it's easy to determine the political persuasion of most of the posters on this thread. I think most people would be willing to pay more for a viable NHS, probably even including tax rises. Unfortnately, those decisions are taken by politicians that don't actually use the service the same as us!



Free at the point of delivery. Nothing is free, we all know that.



Surely the question is why do we need so many agency nurses in the first place. Answer probably is that they don't like working under the pressure of the NHS. As an agency nurse they have more control over their hours. So perhaps we should be training more nurses rather than less so that working conditions are better and people don't leave. Recent headlines were that one in ten nurses were leaving the NHS, probably in most cases to work for agencies.



Exactly what are you measuring these so called inefficiencies against? According to this they aren't doing too badly compared to others.

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/public...ction-questions-nhs-international-comparisons




Your knowledge of the local area is not good! The list includes Lewes! Southlands in Shoreham is pretty much just a walk in clinic, not the hospital it used to be. The Royal Alex, RSCH and the Eye hospital are pretty much the same site, just different depts. Aldrington specialises in childrens mental health and similar and I think Mill View is similar for Adults.

So whilst your link shows 10, that doesn't mean you have a choice of service providers for any condition. By all means have your surgery at the private Montifiore and Nuffield f*ck it up you'll end up in the intensive care at the RSCH, provided they have a spare bed!



And your evidence? As I posted earlier, in 2014 50.6 per cent of NHS employees are professionally qualified clinical staff. A further 26.0 per cent provide support to clinical staff in roles such as nursing assistant practitioners, nursing assistant/auxiliaries and healthcare assistants.

You spent a lot of time basically saying nothing.
 


Sussex Nomad

Well-known member
Aug 26, 2010
18,185
EP
We should all stump up more money to use it. A fiver or tenner a month, I think most people would be happy to pay it if they knew that money was only going to run the NHS. I would also remove all politics from the NHS completely, there are too many activists, there is too much scaremongering and none of us are getting truth. The NHS should not be used as a tool to win votes for your political party.

But it doesn't go to the NHS, just like road tax doesn't go to roads.
 




Sussex Nomad

Well-known member
Aug 26, 2010
18,185
EP
If the NHS was Govt free, they would say, there you go, 3.5 bill go do your job. As it stands, they lie to us. I'd prefer some truth.
 


portslade seagull

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2003
17,588
portslade
Because you posted saying you felt only one in five employees were clinical which was clearly wrong. By all means take the view that we should have a private healthcare system but at least argue it based on facts.



Firstly, I'd be surprised if consultants are discussing their pay!! However even if they are, pay for NHS consultants is between £76k and £103K per year. If he's earning £1k a day then that will include his private work or they are a locum working for an agency rather than in the direct employ of the NHS.



I think you will find it's easy to determine the political persuasion of most of the posters on this thread. I think most people would be willing to pay more for a viable NHS, probably even including tax rises. Unfortnately, those decisions are taken by politicians that don't actually use the service the same as us!



Free at the point of delivery. Nothing is free, we all know that.



Surely the question is why do we need so many agency nurses in the first place. Answer probably is that they don't like working under the pressure of the NHS. As an agency nurse they have more control over their hours. So perhaps we should be training more nurses rather than less so that working conditions are better and people don't leave. Recent headlines were that one in ten nurses were leaving the NHS, probably in most cases to work for agencies.



Exactly what are you measuring these so called inefficiencies against? According to this they aren't doing too badly compared to others.

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/public...ction-questions-nhs-international-comparisons




Your knowledge of the local area is not good! The list includes Lewes! Southlands in Shoreham is pretty much just a walk in clinic, not the hospital it used to be. The Royal Alex, RSCH and the Eye hospital are pretty much the same site, just different depts. Aldrington specialises in childrens mental health and similar and I think Mill View is similar for Adults.

So whilst your link shows 10, that doesn't mean you have a choice of service providers for any condition. By all means have your surgery at the private Montifiore and Nuffield f*ck it up you'll end up in the intensive care at the RSCH, provided they have a spare bed!



And your evidence? As I posted earlier, in 2014 50.6 per cent of NHS employees are professionally qualified clinical staff. A further 26.0 per cent provide support to clinical staff in roles such as nursing assistant practitioners, nursing assistant/auxiliaries and healthcare assistants.

Firstly I can back up the consultancy pay. My Brother in law was a consultant at the RSCH non clinical. He was earning £650 a day at 1st which they then increased to £700. He was dealing with stores for the trust and the waste amongst different depts was in his words exceptional. His task was to save the trust money as they were haemorrhaging this at a pretty fast rate. In his two years by streamlining the stores and suppliers he saved over 2m. Yes enough to employ a sizable number of new nurses. Guess how much made it to the coal face... zilch. Instead it went to heads of depts who in his words wasted it. He left soon after but not before they offered him another £200 a day to stay. He told them to stuff it as what they said the money he saved would go to employing more Nurses. This is where its wasted
 



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