General Election 2017

Buzzer · May 2, 2017

Gwylan said:
That may be true but all the evidence also suggested that Hitler wanted no war with the UK and, indeed, sued for peace in 1940. Chamberlain may have been persuaded that Hitler wanted no war ... as that was the case.

I'd point to that opinion poll in my previous post. 93% of the UK public who were not privy to any better information were still sure Hitler still had other plans and 83% of the UK public thought that we owed it to other European countries to protect them from attack. Given that then if Chamberlain had actual proof, assuming the Foreign Office had passed on Maclean's information, then Chamberlain had a duty towards the British to challenge Hitler with it at Munich, warn him of the consequences and return with a different agreement.

Buzzer · May 2, 2017

Gwylan said:
That documentary sounds interesting - do you know what it's called?

It's a two-parter. The first deals with Moscow and the latter with St Petersburg. It's the actor Brian Cox, by the way! And he focuses on the huge part the Scots played in Russian history, it really is incredible, and likewise how the Russian revolution influenced John Maclean, the revolutionary Scottish socialist.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/b08n8v8m

ManOfSussex · May 3, 2017

Buzzer said:
I'd point to that opinion poll in my previous post. 93% of the UK public who were not privy to any better information were still sure Hitler still had other plans and 83% of the UK public thought that we owed it to other European countries to protect them from attack. Given that then if Chamberlain had actual proof, assuming the Foreign Office had passed on Maclean's information, then Chamberlain had a duty towards the British to challenge Hitler with it at Munich, warn him of the consequences and return with a different agreement.

70% of The British public backed the Iraq war.

ManOfSussex · May 3, 2017

Buzzer said:
We've got the benefit of hindsight to see why Chamberlain was wrong but at that time in 1938, the likes of Attlee and Churchill were not exactly in step with British popular opinion. The UK didn't want a war at that time and you only have to see the photos who mobbed Chamberlain on his return to see how popular the agreement was across the nation.

I know. The Daily Mail thought Munich was a great idea.

1938-daily-mail-front-page-reporting-the-signing-of-the-munich-peace-e5ggwb.jpg

Gwylan · May 3, 2017

Buzzer said:
I'd point to that opinion poll in my previous post. 93% of the UK public who were not privy to any better information were still sure Hitler still had other plans and 83% of the UK public thought that we owed it to other European countries to protect them from attack.

I don't think anyone at the time didn't believe Hitler had other plans (93% looks pretty low to me) but I wonder how many people thought those plans included the UK - not many, I'd guess.

And, yes, 83% may have thought that we should do more to protect other countries from attack, but what did that mean? Was that doing what Chamberlain did at Munich and enter in talks or did it mean fighting? There were clearly some who thought war inevitable - Churchill the obvious one - but I'm not sure that was a view widely held.

But even if the country did want war, Chamberlain, who'd been Chancellor, was well aware that we couldn't afford it and that may well have coloured his judgment. It's easy to portray Chamberlain as an incompetent fool but I wonder what other politicians would have done in his place - we'd have been defeated quickly if we'd gone to war in 1938. Chamberlain may well have received warnings but wasn't in a position to do much about it,

We'll never know what went on behind closed doors of course, but I do think Chamberlain has had a bum deal from history.

Buzzer · May 3, 2017

ManOfSussex said:
70% of The British public backed the Iraq war.

Ah, apologies. All I was trying to do was show in my last post was underlying British sentiment rather than specific opinions of the likelihood of war. Almost universally, the British didn't trust Hitler and also believed we had a duty to protect the small European countries. And although they didn't trust him there was no proof that he was going to march and so given that the Munich agreement seems fair.

If they had known of the information that people like Maclean was passing on then I don't believe, given those polls, that the UK public would have supported the Munich agreement.

Gwylan · May 3, 2017

Buzzer said:
It's a two-parter. The first deals with Moscow and the latter with St Petersburg. It's the actor Brian Cox, by the way! And he focuses on the huge part the Scots played in Russian history, it really is incredible, and likewise how the Russian revolution influenced John Maclean, the revolutionary Scottish socialist.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/b08n8v8m

Thanks, I'll give that a look.

Buzzer · May 3, 2017

Gwylan said:
I don't think anyone at the time didn't believe Hitler had other plans (93% looks pretty low to me) but I wonder how many people thought those plans included the UK - not many, I'd guess..

I reckon a good part of the 7% in denial were British blackshirts who thought their Teutonic poster boy could do no wrong.

Gwylan said:
but I do think Chamberlain has had a bum deal from history.

I agree.

The Rivet · May 3, 2017

Part One of the docu watched. Very good. I have to say the courage of the Russians in ww2 is beyond question. I am not discussing the postwar accusations. Good watch.

Buzzer · May 3, 2017

The Rivet said:
Part One of the docu watched. Very good. I have to say the courage of the Russians in ww2 is beyond question. I am not discussing the postwar accusations. Good watch.

The statistic that blows me away is that 80% of Russian men born in 1923 died during the war.

spring hall convert · May 3, 2017

Latest Tory Corruption - HSBC uses failing company chaired by Tory Party Treasurer & Chief Fundraiser, Michael Spencer as a vehicle to make £5m of donations to the Tory Party prior to 2010 election.

http://www.dorseteye.com/north/arti...s-the-hsbc-dirty-money-running-the-tory-party

I'm sure it was in no way related to George Osborne doing HSBC's bidding in the States when they were caught red handed laundering the Mexican drug money.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...d-for-leniency-in-americas-hsbc-money-launde/

Further detail here in a question asked at HSBC's recent AGM. As part of banking regulation in this country HSBC has an obligation to be politically neutral.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD33GCxKtLA

attila · May 3, 2017

37% for the Tories, a majority left of centre.
First past the post - keeping Tories in power since 1802.

deletebeepbeepbeep · May 3, 2017

Ernest · May 3, 2017

It will be buried along with the electoral fraud of 2015

kennyb · May 3, 2017

Lib Dem for me too like others cant vote for Corbyn plus voted remain so would be most apt vote for me though i think Peter Kyle is a great MP

deletebeepbeepbeep · May 3, 2017

kennyb said:
Lib Dem for me too like others cant vote for Corbyn plus voted remain so would be most apt vote for me though i think Peter Kyle is a great MP

Well vote for Kyle then if you're in Hove and Portslade otherwise you're effectively helping the Tories.

deletebeepbeepbeep · May 3, 2017

The IFS reports that those on the lowest percentile income will lose 10% of income based on the tories implemented and planned tax and welfare plans.

spring hall convert · May 3, 2017

kennyb said:
Lib Dem for me too like others cant vote for Corbyn plus voted remain so would be most apt vote for me though i think Peter Kyle is a great MP

It is your right to vote for whomever you choose.

However, the Lib Dems have no chance in Hove and I wouldn't worry too much about helping Corbyn become the next PM because it isn't going to happen.

Voting Lib Dem in Hove is only going to help the Tories. If you've got a local MP that you like, you should vote for him. It's not even like Kyle has towed the Corbyn line.....

osgood · May 3, 2017

Well then, looking at the votes already cast , it would seem that approx 12.37% of NSC dont drive a car...

Ernest · May 3, 2017

kennyb said:
Lib Dem for me too like others cant vote for Corbyn plus voted remain so would be most apt vote for me though i think Peter Kyle is a great MP

Vote for May then and see what happens to you and your families life chances

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