[Brighton] Valley Gardens works

LamieRobertson · Oct 25, 2018

Stat Brother said:
Sorry that wasn't my intention, it wasn't meant to be read in the tone you used (but I can see why you used it )

The above reasons were given in this thread against the current changes being made to Valley Gardens, as well as a 'car free day' for Brighton and other general threads based around cars not actually being fit for purpose for urban life.

Nitram · Oct 25, 2018

Can't see the this improving the situation at all, it's just moving pieces around the board and not addressing the real question of accommodating visitors to the city. In the real world people use cars to get to destinations especially if they travel a distance. If this scheme improves the flow of buses in the town then it will have achieved part of its aims, but unless it's linked to an out of town park and ride it's all a waste of time and is just an exercise in kicking the ball into the long grass.
Unfortunately many of the objections to park and ride are the people who hate cars in the first place.

Tom Hark Preston Park · Oct 25, 2018

Never been in a city yet that wasn't improved immeasurably by giving people not in cars priority over people in cars. Hell, hate to admit it, but it's almost a pleasure to emerge from East Croydon station into the uncluttered pedestrian-friendly Tramlink space. Imagine how nice it would be to walk out of Brighton station and find something clean and elegant instead of the current normal Brighton traffic mess. What a crap first impression for the first-time visitor, or indeed anybody else not in a car. Sorry, but those people stuck in cars locally grumbling about 'the traffic' really just don't get it. They ARE the traffic and they're on the wrong side of the argument and the wrong side of history. Brighton wasn't built for everyman and his car to swan around in with gay abandon, and not too many years down the line from now the very idea that we ever let it happen at all will be laughable.

And...RELAX :smokin:

Stat Brother · Oct 25, 2018

Tom Hark said:
Never been in a city yet that wasn't improved immeasurably by giving people not in cars priority over people in cars. Hell, hate to admit it, but it's almost a pleasure to emerge from East Croydon station into the uncluttered pedestrian-friendly Tramlink space. Imagine how nice it would be to walk out of Brighton station and find something clean and elegant instead of the current normal Brighton traffic mess. What a crap first impression for the first-time visitor, or indeed anybody else not in a car. Sorry, but those people stuck in cars locally grumbling about 'the traffic' really just don't get it. They ARE the traffic and they're on the wrong side of the argument and the wrong side of history. Brighton wasn't built for everyman and his car to swan around in with gay abandon, and not too many years down the line from now the very idea that we ever let it happen at all will be laughable.

And...RELAX

The Large One · Oct 25, 2018

Nitram said:
Can't see the this improving the situation at all, it's just moving pieces around the board and not addressing the real question of accommodating visitors to the city. In the real world people use cars to get to destinations especially if they travel a distance. If this scheme improves the flow of buses in the town then it will have achieved part of its aims, but unless it's linked to an out of town park and ride it's all a waste of time and is just an exercise in kicking the ball into the long grass.
Unfortunately many of the objections to park and ride are the people who hate cars in the first place.

Yes, I always look forward to more roads to cater for more traffic to lead to more gridlock and more pollution.

Motorists don't add to the local economy. They only do that when they become pedestrians.

Nitram · Oct 25, 2018

The Large One said:
Yes, I always look forward to more roads to cater for more traffic to lead to more gridlock and more pollution.

Motorists don't add to the local economy. They only do that when they become pedestrians.

Tourists and visitors add to the local economy are you saying none are motorists or are just swanning around Brighton for the views as another poster alluded to?
Motorists are a fact of life get over it. I’m presuming you live in Brighton, many don’t but want to visit, train links are problematic as can be out of town bus services.
No reason an out of Brighton park and ride would not work and no reason that would add to congestion.
I’ve got a car live in Brighton but never use it in town, I either walk or bus. I’m lucky to have options many visitors to Brighton don’t.

Gwylan · Oct 25, 2018

Nitram said:
Tourists and visitors add to the local economy are you saying none are motorists or are just swanning around Brighton for the views as another poster alluded to?

I think TLO was alluding to the fact that no-one sits in a car to shop - they have to become pedestrians to enter a building. Cities that have gone car free or introduced large pedestrian/cycling zones have generally seen a boost to the retail economy - so the fewer cars, the better for business

No reason an out of Brighton park and ride would not work

Surf's Up · Oct 25, 2018

Stat Brother said:
E-bikes are very much the latest 'thing' in the industry.
If they are out of your price range now, they won't be in a couple of years time.

This - soon everyone will have one and we will laugh when we think back to the time when a bike didn't have any form of electrical assistance.

The Large One · Oct 25, 2018

Nitram said:
Tourists and visitors add to the local economy are you saying none are motorists or are just swanning around Brighton for the views as another poster alluded to?
Motorists are a fact of life get over it. I’m presuming you live in Brighton, many don’t but want to visit, train links are problematic as can be out of town bus services.

I know motorists are a fact of life, so there's nothing to 'get over'. However, it doesn't follow that the more motorists you can bring into a city, the more the economy benefits, especially if all they're doing is adding to traffic and pollution. There is a finite amount as to how much a city - any city - can cope. Adding to the problem really won't help. How much money does a motorist bring to the local economy? It's not until they get out of the car that they then start spending money.

Nitram said:
No reason an out of Brighton park and ride would not work and no reason that would add to congestion.
I’ve got a car live in Brighton but never use it in town, I either walk or bus. I’m lucky to have options many visitors to Brighton don’t.

As has been said on this thread and on this forum for years, if there is no reason why a Park & Ride won't work, why isn't there one yet? It's not as though no-one has thought of it before. However, no-one has yet come up with a feasible plan. So if there is one you can come up with, let us know...

Gwylan said:
I think TLO was alluding to the fact that no-one sits in a car to shop - they have to become pedestrians to enter a building. Cities that have gone car free or introduced large pedestrian/cycling zones have generally seen a boost to the retail economy - so the fewer cars, the better for business

Indeed I was. Didn't realise it needed clarifying... :ohmy:

pearl · Oct 25, 2018

Tom Hark said:
Never been in a city yet that wasn't improved immeasurably by giving people not in cars priority over people in cars. Hell, hate to admit it, but it's almost a pleasure to emerge from East Croydon station into the uncluttered pedestrian-friendly Tramlink space. Imagine how nice it would be to walk out of Brighton station and find something clean and elegant instead of the current normal Brighton traffic mess. What a crap first impression for the first-time visitor, or indeed anybody else not in a car. Sorry, but those people stuck in cars locally grumbling about 'the traffic' really just don't get it. They ARE the traffic and they're on the wrong side of the argument and the wrong side of history. Brighton wasn't built for everyman and his to swan around in with gay abandon, and not too many years down the line from now the very idea that we ever let it happen at all will be laughable.

And...RELAX

oh ... I thought it twas

ofco8 · Oct 25, 2018

Firstly, Brighton was, as said, not built for cars, but horses and carts, like every other town and city in the country. However, councils with more foresight upgraded their infrastructure to the modern age. Valley Gardens does not fit that category and is a retrograde step for the economy of the city.

Secondly, Brighton and Hove does not have a P & R scheme as the councillors we elect of all parties couldn't arrange a P up in a B.

As for me, we have two cars and live in the suburbs of Brighton. When the bus is appropriate, which it normally is for the centre of town, I use it. Otherwise the car, or train, when running.

The Large One · Oct 25, 2018

ofco8 said:
Firstly, Brighton was, as said, not built for cars, but horses and carts, like every other town and city in the country. However, councils with more foresight upgraded their infrastructure to the modern age. Valley Gardens does not fit that category and is a retrograde step for the economy of the city.

For a start, you're comparing apples with oranges.

There was a plan to *cough* 'upgrade the infrastructure'. It involved knocking down the entire North Laine residential area. What a great upgrade that would have been.

The Valley Gardens upgrade is there to serve the single most important aspect of city life - people. So how is that retrogressive?

ofco8 said:
Secondly, Brighton and Hove does not have a P & R scheme as the councillors we elect of all parties couldn't arrange a P up in a B.

As has been said time and time and time and time again, if you know of a P&R scheme which will work effectively, and where to site it (as if Withdean was ever appropriate), let us know. And why you are blaming councillors, I've no idea. They're not the ones who come up with the schemes.

blue-shifted · Oct 25, 2018

Still think Withdean is the perfect location for a park and ride. No new infrastructure needs to be created. They just need to put on the buses, (direct to Churchill Square) and tell people it's there.

A park and ride at the Marina (or the Black Rock wasteland bit) for traffic from the east could be explored as well. Traffic from the west is a harder problem

The Large One · Oct 25, 2018

blue-shifted said:
Still think Withdean is the perfect location for a park and ride. No new infrastructure needs to be created. They just need to put on the buses, (direct to Churchill Square) and tell people it's there.

The point of a Park & Ride is that it doesn't bring any traffic into the city - or the suburbs - at all. It's 1.5 miles from the Patcham Interchange to Withdean Stadium. But the point is seriously undermined by the fact that there are only 120 parking spaces available at Withdean. So the issue is still not resolved, and very much far from perfect.

blue-shifted said:
A park and ride at the Marina (or the Black Rock wasteland bit) for traffic from the east could be explored as well. Traffic from the west is a harder problem

Whereabouts at the Marina? All the car parks are pretty much full a fair whack of the time - by people who want to use the Marina.

Gwylan · Oct 25, 2018

The Large One said:
For a start, you're comparing apples with oranges.

There was a plan to *cough* 'upgrade the infrastructure'. It involved knocking down the entire North Laine residential area. What a great upgrade that would have been.

Don't forget there was a proposal to demolish the Pavilion and the Regency houses on the seafront too
http://www.mybrightonandhove.org.uk/page_id__6146_path__0p115p194p862p0p115p207p475p890p.aspx

I'd like to know which old towns Ofco8 has in mind when he says they had the foresight to upgrade? Canterbury, Oxford, Cambridge, Durham, York, Norwich etc all have schemes to reduce traffic (park and ride, pedestrianisation, congestion charge, cycle ways - or a combination of them). There are some places that have been extensively modernised but that's as much down to the Luftwaffe as it is to councils.

And have all these people suggesting park and ride in B&H been asleep for the past 20 years?

blue-shifted · Oct 25, 2018

Another desirable feature of a park and ride of course is that the distances travelled by the buses are small enough so they can get to and from the destination quickly.

Marina car park full? Never seen it full, usually loads of capacity there. Same with the Asda one. People who use the park and ride might also whilst they are out, use the marina, or shop at asda.... there's a deal which could be done .... or if it can't, then Black Road can be accessed by that road which goes down towards Yellow wave. Might as well do something with the space where that sand sculpture place used to be

Only 120? at Withdean. Really? seems bigger than that. Call it 200 with a bit of over-spill street parking (what's John Catt up to these days? nothing I hope) and that's better than nothing.

None of this is totally straight forward or it would have been done, but don't see too much that's insurmountable. Surely one or more limited solutions is better than more decades of no solutions

The Large One said:
The point of a Park & Ride is that it doesn't bring any traffic into the city - or the suburbs - at all. It's 1.5 miles from the Patcham Interchange to Withdean Stadium. But the point is seriously undermined by the fact that there are only 120 parking spaces available at Withdean. So the issue is still not resolved, and very much far from perfect.

Whereabouts at the Marina? All the car parks are pretty much full a fair whack of the time - by people who want to use the Marina.

Weststander · Oct 25, 2018

blue-shifted said:
Still think Withdean is the perfect location for a park and ride. No new infrastructure needs to be created. They just need to put on the buses, (direct to Churchill Square) and tell people it's there.

A park and ride at the Marina (or the Black Rock wasteland bit) for traffic from the east could be explored as well. Traffic from the west is a harder problem

Living very close to that Withdean site, in effect it's used as an unofficial park n ride already, with the car park full each day.

The users are invariably the elderly (free fares?), catching the 27.

The young and middle age seemingly refuse to use it, because of the love of their car (we're all guilty of this if we're honest), and I suppose there's a cost deterrant for families having to pay high bus fares times say 5. Instead, by choice suffering the congested drive into Brighton city centre by car. 90% of those under 65 simply love being in their car and won't budge.

Stat Brother · Oct 25, 2018

Weststander said:
Instead, by choice suffering the congested drive into Brighton city centre by car. 90% of those under 65 simply love being in their car and won't budge.

Now that's where we disagree.

I believe 90% of those under 65 would happily be out of their cars, if the alternative options were deemed viable.
The fact that many of them are already is neither here nor there.

What's required is better alternatives to car heavy traffic jams.

What's the difference between sitting in the traffic jam behind a bus or in the bus?

But if that bus is reliable, cost effective, and not only quicker but they're repeatedly whizzing past as your still sat in the same jam, then people will get the message.

As have always said, there isn't a quick fix.
There isn't even a governmental time frame fix.
We're talking generational improvement to transportation that hasn't altered since WWII, only steadily declined under the sheer weight of cars.

Weststander · Oct 25, 2018

Stat Brother said:
Now that's where we disagree.

I believe 90% of those under 65 would happily be out of their cars, if the alternative options were deemed viable.
The fact that many of them are already is neither here nor there.

What's required is better alternatives to car heavy traffic jams.

What's the difference between sitting in the traffic jam behind a bus or in the bus?

But if that bus is reliable, cost effective, and not only quicker but they're repeatedly whizzing past as your still sat in the same jam, then people will get the message.

As have always said, there isn't a quick fix.
There isn't even a governmental time frame fix.
We're talking generational improvement to transportation that hasn't altered since WWII, only steadily declined under the sheer weight of cars.

My longheld dream (very unlikely due to sheer capital cost) is for a tram or light railway in the conurbation. Route one - Black Rock or Marina or bottom of Wilson Avenue, to Shoreham by the Adur. This would be so attractive to commuters, shoppers, etc. Seeing in the flesh old and brand new tram systems in places such as Amsterdam, Toulouse, Orleans, they're all amazing. With other key routes too.

Politely, you don't drive do you? I think the proportion of petrol/diesel heads out there, as well as the lazy, is huge. Some young people in this suburb drive their kids 300m to school, then drive home again, rain or shine. People are in love with modern cars, the resulting privacy, gadgets, music etc. It's so cheap now to get an Audi, BMW, Merc or Landrover on contract hire or PCP.

I reckon it will take stick: huge fuel prices prices, Valley Gardens type schemes, to force some of them to give up use of the car.

The Large One · Oct 25, 2018

blue-shifted said:
Only 120? at Withdean. Really? seems bigger than that. Call it 200 with a bit of over-spill street parking (what's John Catt up to these days? nothing I hope) and that's better than nothing.

None of this is totally straight forward or it would have been done, but don't see too much that's insurmountable. Surely one or more limited solutions is better than more decades of no solutions

There's no point in publicising a Park & Ride to serve one of the most visited cities in England (especially in the summer) and then having only 120 spaces. I don't think it's anyone's idea of a good plan.

Oxford's Park & Ride, for example, has 2,400 spaces across three sites.

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