Shootings and explosion in Paris!

dingodan · Nov 21, 2015

On the subject of Refugees and terrorists, that was an obvious issue. But the really interesting and noteworthy thing I would remind people of was during the time we were watching the refugees in sinking boats. The dead boy on the beach. All of that was tragic and heartbreaking. But in that moment of tragedy and heartbreak people did not want to hear that some bad people may put themselves amongst the needy to try to get into Europe. People really really did not want to hear anything like that, infact when it was suggested as possible, there was outrage. Well those people had a point. Afew weeks ago saying such things made them awful people, today world leaders are all concerning themselves with that very possibility. It's amazing (and a little scary) to me how powerful and problematic political correctness can be.

Buzzer · Nov 21, 2015

dingodan said:
On the subject of Refugees and terrorists, that was an obvious issue. But the really interesting and noteworthy thing I would remind people of was during the time we were watching the refugees in sinking boats. The dead boy on the beach. All of that was tragic and heartbreaking. But in that moment of tragedy and heartbreak people did not want to hear that some bad people may put themselves amongst the needy to try to get into Europe. People really really did not want to hear anything like that, infact when it was suggested as possible, there was outrage. Well those people had a point. Afew weeks ago saying such things made them awful people, today world leaders are all concerning themselves with that very possibility. It's amazing (and a little scary) to me how powerful and problematic political correctness can be.

Dan Hannan, the Tory MEP has been absolutely on the money with this all along. We should have accepted refugees but only those from the refugee camps and made that a cast-iron guarantee. It would have stopped all those drownings, all that human trafficking, that exodus across the Balkans, it would have been so much better for the old, the very young and for the families and we could have properly screened people. It would have allowed some sort of order and fairness. It may even have prevented what happened in Paris.

dingodan · Nov 21, 2015

Buzzer said:
Dan Hannan, the Tory MEP has been absolutely on the money with this all along. We should have accepted refugees but only those from the refugee camps and made that a cast-iron guarantee. It would have stopped all those drownings, all that human trafficking, that exodus across the Balkans, it would have been so much better for the old, the very young and for the families and we could have properly screened people. It would have allowed some sort of order and fairness. It may even have prevented what happened in Paris.

I like Daniel Hannan.

Ernest · Nov 21, 2015

Buzzer said:
Dan Hannan, the Tory MEP has been absolutely on the money with this all along. We should have accepted refugees but only those from the refugee camps and made that a cast-iron guarantee. It would have stopped all those drownings, all that human trafficking, that exodus across the Balkans, it would have been so much better for the old, the very young and for the families and we could have properly screened people. It would have allowed some sort of order and fairness. It may even have prevented what happened in Paris.

They were all born and bred LOCALS so how would it have stopped what happened last week ?

Hampster Gull · Nov 21, 2015

Ernest said:
They were all born and bred LOCALS so how would it have stopped what happened last week ?

A sensible challenge

Hastings gull · Nov 21, 2015

dingodan said:
How do you tell a good rebel from a bad one?

"Hi guys, I have some stinger's her to hand out, but only to the good rebels, OK?"

"Now, hands up if you are a good rebel."

I would have thought that the speech marks and the exclamation mark might have made you realise that my comment was rather tongue-in-cheek, which make your sarcastic remarks look rather silly ! 5 years ago or so, as I recall, the only alternative then to Assad was the Free Syrian Army, and at that time there was little mention of Daesch. They seemed at the time to be a credible alternative, or at least that is how the media portrayed them.

Hastings gull · Nov 21, 2015

Ernest said:
They were all born and bred LOCALS so how would it have stopped what happened last week ?

They may or may not have been as you describe. The point, as I understand it, is that they were able to return from Syria disguised as refugees, which makes the situation rather dire, as one reflects how many more have used this route and exactly whom have we imported. Yes, they may have been born in Western Europe, but seemingly were able to travel across continents without rigorous checks. It would not seem that they were just locals, who had not moved anywhere.

JC Footy Genius · Nov 21, 2015

Ernest said:
They were all born and bred LOCALS so how would it have stopped what happened last week ?

Two of the terrorists entered Europe via Leros posing as refugees according to the French Government. (See previous few thread pages). Were they born and bred locals?

Bry Nylon · Nov 21, 2015

I must admit, when I saw the photos and the names I thought, "blow me - they're just a bunch of typical French blokes."

Acker79 · Nov 21, 2015

JC Footy Genius said:
Two of the terrorists entered Europe via Leros posing as refugees according to the French Government. (See previous few thread pages). Were they born and bred locals?

I've entered Europe by passing through Chicago (on a return trip from Canada). Doesn't stop me being born and bred in England.

We know of British citizen going to Syria. If they want to come back, they might pass through Leros, too. The terrorists may have passed through Leros, but based on what we know at the moment, it's entirely possible it was a return journey.

dingodan · Nov 21, 2015

Hastings gull said:
I would have thought that the speech marks and the exclamation mark might have made you realise that my comment was rather tongue-in-cheek, which make your sarcastic remarks look rather silly ! 5 years ago or so, as I recall, the only alternative then to Assad was the Free Syrian Army, and at that time there was little mention of Daesch. They seemed at the time to be a credible alternative, or at least that is how the media portrayed them.

I wasn't being sarcastic.

JC Footy Genius · Nov 21, 2015

Acker79 said:
I've entered Europe by passing through Chicago (on a return trip from Canada). Doesn't stop me being born and bred in England.

We know of British citizen going to Syria. If they want to come back, they might pass through Leros, too. The terrorists may have passed through Leros, but based on what we know at the moment, it's entirely possible it was a return journey.

The poster I was responding to said the terrorists were all local born and bred. The French have identified two as posing as refugees but have not said what nationality they are so I was wondering how he knew.

symyjym · Nov 21, 2015

dingodan said:
Reality check IMO:

Good video.

The way I see this war is the US and allied Sunni states had a cunning plan to topple the Syrian regime by causing unrest to destabilise Syria. Assad was pro democratic reforms but he also understood that transition would take time because of the complex nature of the country which he inherited. He was naturally concerned at what happened in Iraq and Libya where all the state institutions collapsed on themselves. The US and Sunni states were disappointed that he didn’t leave when they told him to and the civil war really took hold.

The US and allied Sunni states facilitated the arming and financing of Sunni rebel groups and Assad was forced to defend his people, the Alwawites, Shias, Christians and other minority faiths by targeting rebel held areas. He had more justification in his actions than Bush/Blair did with theirs.

Assad has been left on his own fighting ISIS, Al Nusra and the Sunni rebel groups, and 90,000 of his soldiers have been killed. He hasn’t been specifically targeting civilians but the rebel groups are launching strikes against the regime from civilian areas who are using weapons supplied from the US and allied Sunni states.

Had the US and the Sunni states not forced this war on Assad and they went down the democratic route, there probably wouldn’t be ISIS and the country and its heritage would not have been destroyed.

When they blame Assad for ISIS its like they are trying to shift the responsibility for the mess we live in today away from the Bush/Blair war.

beorhthelm · Nov 21, 2015

nice fantasy scenario you're drawing there symyjym, but the the only democracy Assad was/is interested in is the "which member of the Baath party would you like". an awful lot has changed since 2011 on who is fighting who in Syria, but the baseline is the incumbant government wouldnt survive in a genuine democracy when they are such a minority. and they wouldnt allow that to happen. the original civil war was organic, part of the Arab spring where the general population were very, very unhappy and rose up. sure, the Sunni powers have intervened, but lets not pretend Assad has been some hero - remember the barrel bombs and chemical warfare upon the civilian populations that were anti-government?

symyjym · Nov 22, 2015

beorhthelm said:
nice fantasy scenario you're drawing there symyjym, but the the only democracy Assad was/is interested in is the "which member of the Baath party would you like". an awful lot has changed since 2011 on who is fighting who in Syria, but the baseline is the incumbant government wouldnt survive in a genuine democracy when they are such a minority. and they wouldnt allow that to happen. the original civil war was organic, part of the Arab spring where the general population were very, very unhappy and rose up. sure, the Sunni powers have intervened, but lets not pretend Assad has been some hero - remember the barrel bombs and chemical warfare upon the civilian populations that were anti-government?

It's rather fanciful thinking that you can change all the state institutions overnight with Assad going before any democratic process has begun. Unless you know the names of anyone else, he was the only person in a position to oversee a transition in the regime. He didn’t build the regime, he inherited it and changing it would not be an easy task for anyone. The Saudi regime doesn't hold the moral high ground on human rights but at least Assad didn't hold public beheadings and stonings. Christians and Shias were most certainly safe there as well.

There are claims to chemical weapons being used by ISIS so it is not proven fact that it was Assad. Regards to barrel bombing, the Saudi’s have been using internationally banned, US made cluster bombs in Yemen.

The scenario should have been with Assad acting as President and overseeing the state institutions but working with an elected Prime Minister.

Soulman · Nov 22, 2015

dingodan said:
On the subject of Refugees and terrorists, that was an obvious issue. But the really interesting and noteworthy thing I would remind people of was during the time we were watching the refugees in sinking boats. The dead boy on the beach. All of that was tragic and heartbreaking. But in that moment of tragedy and heartbreak people did not want to hear that some bad people may put themselves amongst the needy to try to get into Europe. People really really did not want to hear anything like that, infact when it was suggested as possible, there was outrage. Well those people had a point. Afew weeks ago saying such things made them awful people, today world leaders are all concerning themselves with that very possibility. It's amazing (and a little scary) to me how powerful and problematic political correctness can be.

With respect, why do/did you not just wake up. A few on here did, we were slated but still tried to put our views across. The warnings signs were there, but you chose to side with those that had the knee jerk sympathy news that you were fed. Meanwhile atrocities and indoctrination are being implemented upon all the other peaceful races and religions tghat rub along nicely, here and in the civilised world.

symyjym · Nov 22, 2015

Anyway, worth a read [MENTION=599]beorhthelm[/MENTION] ;

https://consortiumnews.com/2015/07/20/the-us-hand-in-the-syrian-mess/

Note: The Syrian regime is secular, tacitly recognizes Israel’s right to exist and does not crave death. It does not have messianic religious beliefs and does not aim to establish an Islamic caliphate in the area it controls.

But hey, let's just replace it with a non secular Sunni regime to oppress the Alawite's, Shia's, Christian's, Kurd's and Yazidi's. Great idea mate :thumbsup:

beorhthelm · Nov 22, 2015

symyjym said:
But hey, let's just replace it with a non secular Sunni regime to oppress the Alawite's, Shia's, Christian's, Kurd's and Yazidi's. Great idea mate

did i even hint at that? no. i just corrected the misguided idea Assad is any better.

Hastings gull · Nov 22, 2015

symyjym said:
It's rather fanciful thinking that you can change all the state institutions overnight with Assad going before any democratic process has begun. Unless you know the names of anyone else, he was the only person in a position to oversee a transition in the regime. He didn’t build the regime, he inherited it and changing it would not be an easy task for anyone. The Saudi regime doesn't hold the moral high ground on human rights but at least Assad didn't hold public beheadings and stonings. Christians and Shias were most certainly safe there as well.

There are claims to chemical weapons being used by ISIS so it is not proven fact that it was Assad. Regards to barrel bombing, the Saudi’s have been using internationally banned, US made cluster bombs in Yemen.

The scenario should have been with Assad acting as President and overseeing the state institutions but working with an elected Prime Minister.

I know you have an obsession about Assad, and we hear this all the time. In fact in an earlier post, you did admit that his dad had made some "mistakes", which I suspect was a severe under-statement! And now, if this is the best you can do i.e saying that others are as bad, or even worse, then that does not speak too highly of your hero, does it? If he was as good for Syria as you claim, that there would not have been a revolt.

BigGully · Nov 22, 2015

Dandyman said:
The refugees are fleeing Daesh and the chaos caused in the Middle East by inept foreign policy, corrupt Gulf states and the rest.

You have failed to show that there is any real link between the refugees and the terrorists other than forged or stolen papers. If you want to have screening of refugees, I don't have a problem with that - it's something the British government have repeatedly refused to do. We could also stop selling weapons to the Saudis. Bahrain and other thugs that bankroll Daesh and AQ, avoid invading other people's countries and work with Russia, Iran and others to produce a response that amounts to more than the division and superstition that the terrorists want to produce.

You nor me have a clue where, why and how they are flooding into Europe, that is the point.

You now say you dont have a problem with screening, why do you now accept such a measure might be necessary but not before ??

Its all a little too late and something I doubt you ever initially demanded or even contemplated, thats the weakness of your view, you are wholly non challenging and therefore your position, which quite shockingly include many European leaders policy too has caused an undoubted security issue, you and others are scrambling about hoping beyond hope that we cannot currently link any terrorist plot with any incoming Syrian, but why you could even not consider any likelihood is incredible.

Even if we for sake of argument take the inevitable terrorist threat out of the equation, it isnt compatible to our culture to suck in 100 000's of peoples with an overriding religious dynamic, with a default position of bigotry, anti equality, a non tolerance to homosexuality and a myriad of other issues that we in the west have fought to evolve into our civilisation for hundreds of years including tolerance, freedom, equality and justice, something that no religion can ever take credit for.

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