[Football] Hillsborough match commander David Duckenfield will go on trial * Not Guilty *

Mo Gosfield · Jun 29, 2018

dejavuatbtn said:
Agreed. We are never going to stop disasters from happening; we can only try and put appropriate plans in place to prevent them and if the worst happens ensure that they are not repeated. There are alwayss disasters waiting to happen, especially in crowds. Examples - Preston Park Station platform after a game at Withdean with an express train going through, or the stairs at the old Wembley Stadium where 25% of those evacuating the stadium didn’t physically tread on any of the steps but were carried down in the packed crowd. Shit happens - unfortunately Hillsborough was the worst kind. I like to think that our safety at the Amex is partly due to the lessons learned.

It took a hell of a long time to learn these lessons.....
1946....Burnden Park..... 33 DEAD....400 injured
1971....Ibrox....................66 DEAD.....200 injured
1985....Valley Parade.....56 DEAD.....265 injured
1985....Heysel................39 DEAD.....600 injured

......and still, in 1989, the Football Association persisted in holding an FAC Semi Final in a stadium not fit for purpose. Warnings had been given at previous big games at Hillsborough that it was a disaster waiting to happen....IGNORED..... Those that made the decision to hold that game, in the light of all security advice given prior to the game, at a stadium not fit for purpose, should equally be charged with manslaughter.
We trusted them with the stewardship of our game. They let everybody down. Its about bloody time that these individuals were named and shamed. It doesn't matter if some of them are no longer with us. Let their families know that these suited and booted imbeciles failed in their duty of running our game.
They lit the fuse. Duckenfield fanned the flames.

Weststander · Jun 29, 2018

Mo Gosfield said:
It took a hell of a long time to learn these lessons.....
1946....Burnden Park..... 33 DEAD....400 injured
1971....Ibrox....................66 DEAD.....200 injured
1985....Valley Parade.....56 DEAD.....265 injured
1985....Heysel................39 DEAD.....600 injured

......and still, in 1989, the Football Association persisted in holding an FAC Semi Final in a stadium not fit for purpose. Warnings had been given at previous big games at Hillsborough that it was a disaster waiting to happen....IGNORED..... Those that made the decision to hold that game, in the light of all security advice given prior to the game, at a stadium not fit for purpose, should equally be charged with manslaughter.
We trusted them with the stewardship of our game. They let everybody down. Its about bloody time that these individuals were named and shamed. It doesn't matter if some of them are no longer with us. Let their families know that these suited and booted imbeciles failed in their duty of running our game.
They lit the fuse. Duckenfield fanned the flames.

Justice will be served.

This could and should have all been settled in the early 90’s, but an orchestrated campaign to pervert the course of justice, delayed it until now. Frightening to think that senior figures in the legal system, chose that path.

Bwian · Jun 29, 2018

blue-shifted said:
Hmmm, Manslaughter? Difficult to attribute this to one person. Perverting the course of justice would be a more likely conviction, but we'll see the evidence I suppose

Manslaughter as a result of gross negligence I believe. He was aware of what was happening, ignored advice and failed to react when it all went wrong. He then shifted the blame on to Liverpool supporters. The lying piece of shit needs stripping of his pension that he held on to by resigning before the inquiries. He is a fvcking scumbag whose actions and lies have resulted in decades of bullshit towards all football fans.

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Weststander · Jun 29, 2018

Bwian said:
Manslaughter as a result of gross negligence I believe. He was aware of what was happening, ignored advice and failed to react when it all went wrong. He then shifted the blame on to Liverpool supporters. The lying piece of shit needs stripping of his pension that he held on to by resigning before the inquiries. He is a fvcking scumbag whose actions and lies have resulted in decades of bullshit towards all football fans.

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The failure to react correctly, cost the lives of people.

BRIGHT ON Q · Jun 29, 2018

Mo Gosfield said:
It took a hell of a long time to learn these lessons.....
1946....Burnden Park..... 33 DEAD....400 injured
1971....Ibrox....................66 DEAD.....200 injured
1985....Valley Parade.....56 DEAD.....265 injured
1985....Heysel................39 DEAD.....600 injured

......and still, in 1989, the Football Association persisted in holding an FAC Semi Final in a stadium not fit for purpose. Warnings had been given at previous big games at Hillsborough that it was a disaster waiting to happen....IGNORED..... Those that made the decision to hold that game, in the light of all security advice given prior to the game, at a stadium not fit for purpose, should equally be charged with manslaughter.
We trusted them with the stewardship of our game. They let everybody down. Its about bloody time that these individuals were named and shamed. It doesn't matter if some of them are no longer with us. Let their families know that these suited and booted imbeciles failed in their duty of running our game.
They lit the fuse. Duckenfield fanned the flames.

I think the crowd all spilled on to the pitch because of overcrowding from the leppings lane enduring the semi final between wolves and spurs in the early 80s so something should have been done after that.

Triggaaar · Jun 29, 2018

Thunder Bolt said:
You have blamed the Liverpool fans all the time even though the inquest ruled that not one of them was to blame. It's time to face the truth and stop posting tripe.

Those that died and their friends and families have been let down by both the people in charge at the time, and the lies and reporting since. They have got a lot closer to the truth and some element of justice.

In my mind the blame lies with those people in charge - for letting the game take place there, and the actions of those on the day. However I wouldn't say that no fan did anything wrong. There would have been some fans without tickets, and some fans pushed their way into the ground. That was of course predictable, so as I say, I don't feel the blame lies with them, but those in charge.

Bwian · Jun 29, 2018

Weststander said:
The failure to react correctly, cost the lives of people.

96 lives. Total respect to the families for refusing to be bullied into submission. Now Duckenfield has to face them all in a criminal court.

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Thunder Bolt · Jun 29, 2018

Triggaaar said:
Those that died and their friends and families have been let down by both the people in charge at the time, and the lies and reporting since. They have got a lot closer to the truth and some element of justice.

In my mind the blame lies with those people in charge - for letting the game take place there, and the actions of those on the day. However I wouldn't say that no fan did anything wrong. There would have been some fans without tickets, and some fans pushed their way into the ground. That was of course predictable, so as I say, I don't feel the blame lies with them, but those in charge.

The inquest showed that there were the right amount of people at Hillsborough for the number of tickets sold, so that myth, accusation or whatever you want to call it, has been completely wiped out.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/determinations-and-findings-of-the-hillsborough-inquests

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...s-jury-says-96-victims-were-unlawfully-killed

Weststander · Jun 29, 2018

Triggaaar said:
Those that died and their friends and families have been let down by both the people in charge at the time, and the lies and reporting since. They have got a lot closer to the truth and some element of justice.

In my mind the blame lies with those people in charge - for letting the game take place there, and the actions of those on the day. However I wouldn't say that no fan did anything wrong. There would have been some fans without tickets, and some fans pushed their way into the ground. That was of course predictable, so as I say, I don't feel the blame lies with them, but those in charge.

I used to wrongly guess the same last point you make about the fans, until it was drawn to my attention that Lord Justice Taylor and other independent experts since, proved all that hearsay wrong. It really was a case of legit ticket-holders being mismanaged to their deaths.

Triggaaar · Jun 29, 2018

Thunder Bolt said:
The inquest showed that there were the right amount of people at Hillsborough for the number of tickets sold, so that myth, accusation or whatever you want to call it, has been completely wiped out.

Weststander said:
I used to wrongly guess the same last point you make about the fans, until it was drawn to my attention that Lord Justice Taylor and other independent experts since, proved all that hearsay wrong.

How can they prove how many people were there on the day?

The inquest may not have had proof that some people didn't have tickets, and the inquest may have found that the blame lies with the authorities, but neither of those things mean that some people didn't have tickets.

And why wouldn't there be people without tickets. There were always people without tickets for big games like that. That's not a slight on Liverpool fans, it was the same with all big clubs. Some people who couldn't get tickets would go. Some might not be able to get to the game, there would always be some tickets available.

darkwolf666 · Jun 29, 2018

Bozza said:
Duckenfield made a monumental mistake with terrible consequences and then lied to cover up for his error for many years, amplifying the pain and suffering for the many affected by the tragedy.

There is a big "what if...?" with Hillsborough though isn't there? Duckenfield shouldn't have been in charge on that day. A horrible example of wrong place/wrong time >>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-27779353

It’s the lies that will do for him ultimately. But don’t forget these lies came from the top down, and even had St Maggies finger prints on them.

There will be a head on a spike and Mr Duckenfield has been chosen for that role...

Yes Chef · Jun 29, 2018

Weststander said:
I used to wrongly guess the same last point you make about the fans, until it was drawn to my attention that Lord Justice Taylor and other independent experts since, proved all that hearsay wrong. It really was a case of legit ticket-holders being mismanaged to their deaths.

Absolutely correct, I believe Lord Justice Taylor indicated this in his interim report, which was published in the August, just a few months after the tragedy. The power of the lie was so great that it's been overlooked by many people for many years.

clapham_gull · Jun 29, 2018

Triggaaar said:
There would have been some fans without tickets, and some fans pushed their way into the ground. [

Complete myth discounted even at the time of the original inquiry.

Tool.

clapham_gull · Jun 29, 2018

Triggaaar said:
How can they prove how many people were there on the day?.

The health and safety executive painstakingly reviewed all the CCTV footage at the time of the original inquiry and counted all the people entering the turnstiles. The ticketless fans myth was disproved even at the time. The stand was under capacity.

Do some research or give it up. You haven't got a ****ing scooby what you are on about.

Triggaaar · Jun 30, 2018

clapham_gull said:
Complete myth discounted even at the time of the original inquiry.

Wrong.

Tool.

How mature.

clapham_gull said:
The health and safety executive painstakingly reviewed all the CCTV footage at the time of the original inquiry and counted all the people entering the turnstiles. The ticketless fans myth was disproved even at the time. The stand was under capacity.

Do some research or give it up. You haven't got a ****ing scooby what you are on about.

Maybe you should do some research. Lord Justice Taylor accepted there were small groups without tickets looking to exploit any chance of getting into the ground.

That is of course different from the myths at the time, that the whole thing was a result of a mass of ticketless fans. I've not suggested that. But some people didn't have tickets, and to pretend otherwise defies logic and reason.

And as above, this doesn't change my view that the blame lies with the authorities.

Triggaaar · Jun 30, 2018

Triggaaar said:
There would have been some fans without tickets, and some fans pushed their way into the ground.

Weststander said:
I used to wrongly guess the same last point you make about the fans

Yes Chef said:
Absolutely correct, I believe Lord Justice Taylor indicated this in his interim report, which was published in the August, just a few months after the tragedy.

There are two different points. The police lied and pretended that thousands of drunk ticket-less fans were to blame. However, the Taylor report didn't say that no fans were without tickets. I said there would have been some without tickets - as Lord Justice Taylor concluded - I didn't say there were thousands and it was all their fault.

clapham_gull · Jun 30, 2018

Triggaaar said:
There are two different points. The police lied and pretended that thousands of drunk ticket-less fans were to blame. However, the Taylor report didn't say that no fans were without tickets. I said there would have been some without tickets - as Lord Justice Taylor concluded - I didn't say there were thousands and it was all their fault.

Reminding me of:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HS3bxT4Yrrc

Saunders · Jun 30, 2018

Kalimantan Gull said:
Not sure like this. Guy has to make a snap decision on his job whether or not to open a gate in stressful circumstances - it has horrendous consequences but could they really have been foreseen? Can you really lock someone up for that? I don't know.

I could agree with this but his actions afterward the lies and the cover up afterwards are the real crime.

Thunder Bolt · Jun 30, 2018

Triggaaar said:
How can they prove how many people were there on the day?

The inquest may not have had proof that some people didn't have tickets, and the inquest may have found that the blame lies with the authorities, but neither of those things mean that some people didn't have tickets.

And why wouldn't there be people without tickets. There were always people without tickets for big games like that. That's not a slight on Liverpool fans, it was the same with all big clubs. Some people who couldn't get tickets would go. Some might not be able to get to the game, there would always be some tickets available.

As has already been stated, cctv was used to painstakingly count every person there. It was stated categorically there were not any ticketless fans.

To answer Kalimantan' it wasn't just one decision to open the gates,. You can't charge someone with manslaughter on one decision, but wilfully ignoring advice, forcing fans into the centre two pens, when pens three & four were practically empty.

Please read the inquest conclusions. It's all there and why I posted a link to them

The court ruled the fans weren't to blame and were unlawfully killed.

Thunder Bolt · Jun 30, 2018

Saunders said:
I could agree with this but his actions afterward the lies and the cover up afterwards are the real crime.

No, that's perverting the course of justice, and three other people are charged with that.

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[Football] Hillsborough match commander David Duckenfield will go on trial * Not Guilty *