[Politics] Should she stay or should she go now?

Bold Seagull · Dec 13, 2018

pastafarian said:
Parliament overwhelmingly and democratically gave a referendum to the people, so why on earth would i say parliament is undemocratic for doing so.
Giving the people Direct Democracy is not stealing democracy from the people.
Giving the people Direct Democracy, not liking the result they give so telling them to vote again before finalising their decision is the haunt of undemocratic loons.
Campaigning to rejoin after we have left is the right democratic path.

Parliament can not reconcile itself as to how to leave. It is splitting the governmemt and the house. What is the haunt of undemocratic loons is not accepting that leave means leave whether that means staying in the single market, customs union etc. to no deal - it’s all leaving, soft or hard, direct democracy didn’t ask that question.

Mo Gosfield · Dec 13, 2018

Blues Rock DJ said:
as far as I remember it was none of this crap you're spouting....it was a simple leave or stay ?

The referendum result was more than just a decision to leave the EU. It was a massive anti-establishment vote, just the same as Trump's win in the USA. For years, many people in this country, have watched politicians carry out their work with a callous disregard to the interests of their people. They have allowed Britain to become an unpalatable mix of shrinking green belt, urban ghettoes, the under-privileged and homeless and the fat and comfortable. They have failed to pay the lifeblood of this country, small and medium sized businesses, the attention and respect they deserve, milking them for all they are worth and burdening them with red tape, whilst allowing large foreign companies to trade here, without meeting their tax obligations. They have overseen the demise of the High Street. They have allowed our population to rise unchecked and have ignored the social pressures building up in this country. They have allowed police numbers to drop, crime to rise and finally, they have dumbed down the education system, to suit their own political ends and created false hopes for millions of children, through artificial over-achievement.
Is it any wonder that many saw the vote as a chance to say..." enough is enough " Sure, they didn't like faceless control from overseas and loss of sovereignty but they could see their day to day lives changing and they didn't think it was for the better. It was a chance to say ' up yours ' to the Establishment. The power-brokers had had it all their own way for too long. This was a chance to say.." we know what you're up to, we don't like it, you're not interested in us, so poke it " These sort of chances don't come along very often. General elections don't change the status quo.
Contrary to all of this, there are many happy with their lot..." Im alright Jack "....they have a comfortable lifestyle, have done well for themselves and don't see why the fabric should change. Most don't like change. It makes them feel uncomfortable. They want security. They don't see why a gamble is necessary. Why go down to go up again? We are doing alright, why change?
You will never bridge this divide and the point I was making is that it was more than just a simple leave or stay. The Establishment control our lives ( and I guess from your response that you don't agree with that ) and the last thing in the Universe they want, is change. In my humble opinion, what could have been a smoother process, has been deliberately hi-jacked.

Deleted member 2719 · Dec 13, 2018

Thunder Bolt said:
What a complete and utter pile of codswallop. Theresa May was elected leader of the Conservative party 28 months ago. Today her party are having a vote to try and get rid of her.
That's one month less than the referendum.

So it's ok for MPs to have another vote, because it's democracy.

As for threatening violence and riots, the Leave voters couldn't even manage 200 at last week's demonstration.

You have been watching too much 'Hancock's half hour'.

Your talking about a decision that was voted for which hasn't even been implemented yet and you're going to have a second vote to try and get a different result.

That's disgusting, cheating and not democratic if that was to happen there would be riots, the line would have been well and truly crossed.

Mental Lental · Dec 13, 2018

Mouldy Boots said:
if that was to happen there would be riots, the line would have been well and truly crossed.

I get the feeling that the nation would collectively breath a big sigh of relief, say "thank **** that's over" and sit down for a nice cup of tea.

Thunder Bolt · Dec 13, 2018

Mental Lental said:
I get the feeling that the nation would collectively breath a big sigh of relief, say "thank **** that's over" and sit down for a nice cup of tea.

Yep.

sully · Dec 13, 2018

Mouldy Boots said:
You have been watching too much 'Hancock's half hour'.

Your talking about a decision that was voted for which hasn't even been implemented yet and you're going to have a second vote to try and get a different result.

That's disgusting, cheating and not democratic if that was to happen there would be riots, the line would have been well and truly crossed.

Surely it makes sense for everyone to make a final decision based on what is now on offer. We didn’t know what leave looked like 2 years ago and some might say they’d rather stay than have May’s deal. We simply don’t know at the moment, so why are the leavers so frightened to ask?

When you make big decisions in your life, it’s unusual to make a decision based on little information and then doggedly stick to it even if you find out before you have to commit that it doesn’t look as good as you thought it might.

Then we have the sight of pillocks like Rees-Mogg saying that 52% two years ago means we must press on but May winning a vote by a far greater margin yesterday means her authority is shot. And this is supposedly democracy to a politician. I just find myself shaking my head at these idiots.

amexer · Dec 13, 2018

I was a remainer. We lost just get on with it.
As a matter of interest what would happen in another vote if it was 51% to 49% remain. Do we have another vote. Both parties are split just shows more with cons as they are in government.

Justice · Dec 13, 2018

It’s easy to make the EU beg lower corporation tax. May is to spineless though after last nights vote she should be having tea with the queen today which proves she’s only interested in herself.

The Gem · Dec 13, 2018

Plooks said:
Around 50% voted leave. You mentioned half of those who voted leave, which is about 25% of those who voted.

Around 20% of the entire population are under 15 so could not vote. That brings the total down to 52million voters. There are 3million EU nationals that were not allowed to vote. That bring the total down to 49million voters.

The official figures said that there were 46.5million registered voters. Of that 46.5million, 51.9% votes leave.

So of the vote 51.9% voted leave not 25% of the vote. That is 24.113million. more than half. You might be using the 65million people in the country. 28.46% were not eligible to vote.

Notters · Dec 13, 2018

Bob! said:
Stay
We need her to see out her version of Brexit. If she fails there's nothing stopping her resigning.

Someone else takes over we could see a No-deal, which imo would be a disaster for our country.

It's already a disaster imho

Fungus · Dec 13, 2018

Mouldy Boots said:
You have been watching too much 'Hancock's half hour'.

Your talking about a decision that was voted for which hasn't even been implemented yet and you're going to have a second vote to try and get a different result.

That's disgusting, cheating and not democratic if that was to happen there would be riots, the line would have been well and truly crossed.

Why are you so scared of a second vote? If people still want to leave, they'll vote leave again.

The Gem · Dec 13, 2018

Triggaaar said:
Now if Laura Kuenssberg.........

As an off topic, I would so plough her !!!!

Justice · Dec 13, 2018

Mo Gosfield said:
The referendum result was more than just a decision to leave the EU. It was a massive anti-establishment vote, just the same as Trump's win in the USA. For years, many people in this country, have watched politicians carry out their work with a callous disregard to the interests of their people. They have allowed Britain to become an unpalatable mix of shrinking green belt, urban ghettoes, the under-privileged and homeless and the fat and comfortable. They have failed to pay the lifeblood of this country, small and medium sized businesses, the attention and respect they deserve, milking them for all they are worth and burdening them with red tape, whilst allowing large foreign companies to trade here, without meeting their tax obligations. They have overseen the demise of the High Street. They have allowed our population to rise unchecked and have ignored the social pressures building up in this country. They have allowed police numbers to drop, crime to rise and finally, they have dumbed down the education system, to suit their own political ends and created false hopes for millions of children, through artificial over-achievement.
Is it any wonder that many saw the vote as a chance to say..." enough is enough " Sure, they didn't like faceless control from overseas and loss of sovereignty but they could see their day to day lives changing and they didn't think it was for the better. It was a chance to say ' up yours ' to the Establishment. The power-brokers had had it all their own way for too long. This was a chance to say.." we know what you're up to, we don't like it, you're not interested in us, so poke it " These sort of chances don't come along very often. General elections don't change the status quo.
Contrary to all of this, there are many happy with their lot..." Im alright Jack "....they have a comfortable lifestyle, have done well for themselves and don't see why the fabric should change. Most don't like change. It makes them feel uncomfortable. They want security. They don't see why a gamble is necessary. Why go down to go up again? We are doing alright, why change?
You will never bridge this divide and the point I was making is that it was more than just a simple leave or stay. The Establishment control our lives ( and I guess from your response that you don't agree with that ) and the last thing in the Universe they want, is change. In my humble opinion, what could have been a smoother process, has been deliberately hi-jacked.

Great post and spot on. She rambles on about affordable housing in every speech this week, a weak attempt to get the public back onside the woman’s a disgrace. You mention Trump for all his faults he probably would of negotiated a good deal coming out of Europe he for sure wouldn’t have given in to the EU henchman

sully · Dec 13, 2018

The Gem said:
Around 20% of the entire population are under 15 so could not vote. That brings the total down to 52million voters. There are 3million EU nationals that were not allowed to vote. That bring the total down to 49million voters.

The official figures said that there were 46.5million registered voters. Of that 46.5million, 51.9% votes leave.

So of the vote 51.9% voted leave not 25% of the vote. That is 24.113million. more than half. You might be using the 65million people in the country. 28.46% were not eligible to vote.

Stop digging.

It was just pointed out that you made an error in your first statement by saying 50% of those who voted leave. If you’d left the last word off, you’d have been correct, but you didn’t. Nobody is challenging all the other stuff you keep posting!

The Gem · Dec 13, 2018

sully said:
Stop digging.

It was just pointed out that you made an error in your first statement by saying 50% of those who voted leave. If you’d left the last word off, you’d have been correct, but you didn’t. Nobody is challenging all the other stuff you keep posting!

I've just bought a new spade !!!!!!

vegster · Dec 13, 2018

Mo Gosfield said:
The referendum result was more than just a decision to leave the EU. It was a massive anti-establishment vote, just the same as Trump's win in the USA. For years, many people in this country, have watched politicians carry out their work with a callous disregard to the interests of their people. They have allowed Britain to become an unpalatable mix of shrinking green belt, urban ghettoes, the under-privileged and homeless and the fat and comfortable. They have failed to pay the lifeblood of this country, small and medium sized businesses, the attention and respect they deserve, milking them for all they are worth and burdening them with red tape, whilst allowing large foreign companies to trade here, without meeting their tax obligations. They have overseen the demise of the High Street. They have allowed our population to rise unchecked and have ignored the social pressures building up in this country. They have allowed police numbers to drop, crime to rise and finally, they have dumbed down the education system, to suit their own political ends and created false hopes for millions of children, through artificial over-achievement.
Is it any wonder that many saw the vote as a chance to say..." enough is enough " Sure, they didn't like faceless control from overseas and loss of sovereignty but they could see their day to day lives changing and they didn't think it was for the better. It was a chance to say ' up yours ' to the Establishment. The power-brokers had had it all their own way for too long. This was a chance to say.." we know what you're up to, we don't like it, you're not interested in us, so poke it " These sort of chances don't come along very often. General elections don't change the status quo.
Contrary to all of this, there are many happy with their lot..." Im alright Jack "....they have a comfortable lifestyle, have done well for themselves and don't see why the fabric should change. Most don't like change. It makes them feel uncomfortable. They want security. They don't see why a gamble is necessary. Why go down to go up again? We are doing alright, why change?
You will never bridge this divide and the point I was making is that it was more than just a simple leave or stay. The Establishment control our lives ( and I guess from your response that you don't agree with that ) and the last thing in the Universe they want, is change. In my humble opinion, what could have been a smoother process, has been deliberately hi-jacked.

I can't argue against any of this but I will add that over the last 20-30 years with the demise of trade union rights, the wealthy and big business have become ever more adept at increasing their wealth at the expense of the many.

Society is crumbling from the bottom up despite May's trumpeting of the fact that there are more people than ever in jobs. Too many of these jobs are minimum wage or 10p an hour over it so that the government itself has created a pool of cheap labour to be exploited All this talk of the best way out of poverty is to have a job does not stand up when people are IN jobs yet rely on benefits to get by and their only pay rise is when the government increases the Personal Tax allowance threshold or the Minimum Wage. Subsequently tax returns are minimal from so many workers and those with the cash have ever more clever ways to avoid paying their share

We are told that we must all work and i'm genuinely surprised that Mr's May hasn't recycled the old " Work Sets Us Free " mantra as she loves those little soundbites. So we have a huge pool of people in poorly paid work ( I've been looking for a new job for the last 6 months and nearly all I see is jobs working in The Co-Op, Marks, Sainsburys, Asda etc ) who are fundamentally fed up with their lot who voted for Brexit.

But Brexit was never about pouring money in to these peoples pockets, it was the rich Tory boys thinking how to increase their margins by shredding EU standards, guidelines and such working rights as we have left. Don't forget, even with the best possible Brexit we will all be told to tighten our belts and work harder to compete in the global market. No sunny uplands i'm afraid.

Deleted member 2719 · Dec 13, 2018

Mental Lental said:
I get the feeling that the nation would collectively breath a big sigh of relief, say "thank **** that's over" and sit down for a nice cup of tea.

Thunder Bolt said:
Yep.

I bet you two remainders believe in unicorns also.

sully said:
Surely it makes sense for everyone to make a final decision based on what is now on offer. We didn’t know what leave looked like 2 years ago and some might say they’d rather stay than have May’s deal. We simply don’t know at the moment, so why are the leavers so frightened to ask?

When you make big decisions in your life, it’s unusual to make a decision based on little information and then doggedly stick to it even if you find out before you have to commit that it doesn’t look as good as you thought it might.

Then we have the sight of pillocks like Rees-Mogg saying that 52% two years ago means we must press on but May winning a vote by a far greater margin yesterday means her authority is shot. And this is supposedly democracy to a politician. I just find myself shaking my head at these idiots.

So when you first voted remain what made you vote that way?

scared of change?

You were a great player Sully, but you can't swing me on this and there is no point in trying as I am looking at the big picture and future for my children not the short-term disruption.

Oxy McFloppie-Tish said:
Why are you so scared of a second vote? If people still want to leave, they'll vote leave again.

Not scared it should not happen, as rules are rules, end of, its only limp Britain that are having tantrums because they want to skip through fields of vines with the Europeans, if they want it that much they should be heading off to Dover.

I am happy to wave them off.

Thunder Bolt · Dec 13, 2018

Just a couple of examples of why No deal is dangerous.

Anyone here insulin dependent?

https://www.diabetes.org.uk/about_us/news/insulin-brexit

Do you use asthma inhalers?

https://www.pharmaceutical-journal....ntatives-say/20205692.article?firstPass=false

portlock seagull · Dec 13, 2018

Thunder Bolt said:
Just a couple of examples of why No deal is dangerous.

Anyone here insulin dependent?

https://www.diabetes.org.uk/about_us/news/insulin-brexit

Do you use asthma inhalers?

https://www.pharmaceutical-journal....ntatives-say/20205692.article?firstPass=false

Try not to worry if you are but really that’s just not going to happen is it? Nobody is going to die as a result of no deal Brexit. We might have to put up with costs rising and inconvenience but we are not going to need Bob Geldorf or Medicines Sans Frontier putting up tents in Parks to administer drugs to the British population. It’s just not going to happen. Total Project Fear, reminds me of the Mill.Bug scare mongering, Ebola, Bird Flu and other Hollywood inspired scenarios. Won’t be long before the Zombie apocalypse is cited

Thunder Bolt · Dec 13, 2018

portlock seagull said:
Try not to worry if you are but really that’s just not going to happen is it? Nobody is going to die as a result of no deal Brexit. We might have to put up with costs rising and inconvenience but we are not going to need Bob Geldorf or Medicines Sans Frontier putting up tents in Parks to administer drugs to the British population. It’s just not going to happen. Total Project Fear, reminds me of the Mill.Bug scare mongering, Ebola, Bird Flu and other Hollywood inspired scenarios. Won’t be long before the Zombie apocalypse is cited

I said if it is a No Deal The government shouldn't let a No Deal happen but it is a fact that pharmacies have been told to stockpile medicines.
Theresa May herself is insulin dependent.

My reason for posting those two professional links, is not Project Fear but to point out that we do need trade agreements in place.
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