Got something to say or just want fewer pesky ads? Join us... 😊

[News] The 'Dambusters' raid, 75 years ago today (and tomorrow).



Thunder Bolt

Ordinary Supporter
And hundreds of thousands of Germans and Forced Labourers of all nationalities were killed over the 1942-45 bombing campaigns by the RAF at night and USAAF by day. There is no doubt, however, that strategic bombing (not that the Dams Raid was strictly speaking part of the overall campaign) shortened the war in Europe and saved both Allied and German lives.

The loss of power certainly affected the factories making tanks, and having to repair the dams took resources away from other areas. War is a dirty nasty business.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22510300
 


Eeyore

Lord Donkey of Queen's Park
NSC Patreon
Apr 5, 2014
23,380
Terrible thing to do though, 16000 innocents died. It would be considered a war crime today

Not sure about the relevance of this point.

It was a different culture with different rules of engagement. As such a different consideration is needed.

Certainly, in these times, WWII was one huge war crime on all sides. But the context of history means that much smaller elements of the conflict would be considered as such- that because they were at the time.

However modern views, however correct, should not be allowed to blight the over-riding bravery and self sacrifice of those involved. And a random entry like yours risks doing that- even if unattended.
 


essbee1

Well-known member
Jun 25, 2014
4,078
About 1,600 German civilians and Russian forced labourers were drowned by the floods.

Terrible and very sad - but the way it would have been perceived would have been the tragic loss
of that number for the very large number saved by doing the bombing.
 








Shropshire Seagull

Well-known member
Nov 5, 2004
8,477
Telford
Just a small correction - 53 aircrew (not pilots) lost their lives.
Not trying to take anything away from the bravery of those involved...

The stat I heard was
8 of the 19 aircraft failed to return
53 air crew lost in action [on the raid] 40%
3 captured
42 more air crew subsequently lost their lives from injuries sustained on the raid

So, of the 133 who took off that night, 98 were not available for the next mission - 74% - that's massive !!!
 


jakarta

Well-known member
May 25, 2007
15,616
Sullington
The stat I heard was
8 of the 19 aircraft failed to return
53 air crew lost in action [on the raid] 40%
3 captured
42 more air crew subsequently lost their lives from injuries sustained on the raid

So, of the 133 who took off that night, 98 were not available for the next mission - 74% - that's massive !!!

No, the 42 aircrew died on subsequent missions with 617, especially the disastrous Dortmund-Elms Canal Raids which ripped the heart out of the original Squadron (including Gibsons crew- he had been grounded as discussed previously).

But that was the way it was in Bomber Command, my understanding is that during World War II their casualty rates were only exceeded by U-Boat crews.

I have a tenuous connection with this in as much as Mrs Jakarta's Aunt got engaged to a Bomber Pilot in 1943 who was killed, she then got engaged to a Bomber Navigator in 1944 who was also killed.

Her father then told her she musn't go out with any more Bomber Crew so she met and married a Spitfire Pilot instead (he didn't fly in action until early 1945 in Italy so not much Luftwaffe about by then).

He survived, she married him and had three children with after the war, however he was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and died at the age of 30. She was understandably rather bitter about the hand life had dealt her.
 






Stat Brother

Well-known member
NSC Patreon
Jul 11, 2003
73,371
West west west Sussex
Isn't it overdubbed as Digger in the film now?

Having watched it this morning I can categorically say this isn't the case.
Although the first time he's named it isn't clear and could be interpreted that way.
 


Isn't it overdubbed as Digger in the film now?

Definitely not overdubbed, still N***er. Plus it was the codeword for when a dam was actually breached. "Gonner" meant the bomb had been dropped, "N***er" meant it had done it's work.

Film Four did put out a warning just before the film started that the film contained language of the time that some people might find racially offensive.

I've watched it many times before but I really enjoyed it yesterday. One of the best war fils of the time, especially the music.
 


Stat Brother

Well-known member
NSC Patreon
Jul 11, 2003
73,371
West west west Sussex
I've watched it many times before but I really enjoyed it yesterday. One of the best war fils of the time, especially the music.
I don't know why but this morning, while watching, I suddenly thought 'what would this film be like if Americans made it?'
Even the America of that time let alone how the American remake would look now.
With that in mind there were a few 'stiff upper lip' rye smiles to be had.
 




PeterOut

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2016
1,231
I don't know why but this morning, while watching, I suddenly thought 'what would this film be like if Americans made it?'
Even the America of that time let alone how the American remake would look now.
With that in mind there were a few 'stiff upper lip' rye smiles to be had.

I allowed myself a wry smile when i saw your comment :)
 


GT49er

Well-known member
Feb 1, 2009
46,473
Gloucester
My mother lived in Lincoln during the war, and was on site during the period. She knew Guy and used to take ‘******’ his dog for walkies from time to time.
View attachment 97000

[tweet]997076766786183168[/tweet]

And sadly, some OTT PC numpty with no understanding of history or context felt constrained to add, "Warning: contains racist language."
I found [B[that[/B] very offensive. Censoring that word in that context would be an inexcusable re-writing of history. Not on!
 


Thunder Bolt

Ordinary Supporter
And sadly, some OTT PC numpty with no understanding of history or context felt constrained to add, "Warning: contains racist language."
I found [B[that[/B] very offensive. Censoring that word in that context would be an inexcusable re-writing of history. Not on!

It is racist language now, therefore the warning, in case a younger person was watching it, and didn't understand that in the 40s and 50s the word simply described a colour. In haberdashery stores you could ask for n****** brown wool or cotton.

Black people decided they didn't like it, found it offensive and so it became racist. No censoring, just a warning.
 




Eeyore

Lord Donkey of Queen's Park
NSC Patreon
Apr 5, 2014
23,380
It is racist language now, therefore the warning, in case a younger person was watching it, and didn't understand that in the 40s and 50s the word simply described a colour. In haberdashery stores you could ask for n****** brown wool or cotton.

Black people decided they didn't like it, found it offensive and so it became racist. No censoring, just a warning.

A well known charity, that I once worked on a project for, ran a feature on historical pet memories. They featured a picture of a pet burial plot from around the 50s. Unfortunately, they didn't check the headstones for the some of the pet names that might appear in the shot....

My Dad did confirm to me that it was not uncommon for a black cat or dog to be know by the 'N' word.

I would have an issue with such a thing happening now, but I'm not offended at what I see then. It was the culture of the time.
 






GT49er

Well-known member
Feb 1, 2009
46,473
Gloucester
It is racist language now, therefore the warning, in case a younger person was watching it, and didn't understand that in the 40s and 50s the word simply described a colour. In haberdashery stores you could ask for n****** brown wool or cotton.

Let 'em be offended then - that's their problem! They should pay a bit more attention to history (without stupidly trying to interpret and judge history by today's mores).

........and the dog was called '******', by the way, not 'n*****' and nothing now can change that fact!
 






Stat Brother

Well-known member
NSC Patreon
Jul 11, 2003
73,371
West west west Sussex



Paying the bills

Latest Discussions

Paying the bills

Paying the bills

Paying the bills

Albion and Premier League latest from Sky Sports


Top
Link Here