Premier League "B" Teams to compete in JPT ?

Rohana said:

If this whole PL B team thing was handled in a better way then I'd be all for it. Simply plopping Chelsea B, Manchester United B etc in to the football pyramid wouldn't work in the slightest.However, with some tweaking I think it could work. Instead of having a "B" team, Premier League clubs were twinned with local lower league clubs who were financially struggling. The Premier League club could send up to 5 English U-21 players on loan to the L1/L2/C and their fans would get a discount on entry to their games.

For example, Chelsea get twinned with Wycombe. They send them Ruben Loftus-Cheek, Isaiah Brown, Dominic Solanke and Alex Davey on loan. Wycombe get 4 young English players with talent, Chelsea get to have some of their youth players play competitive football together, and therefore get the added advantage of them learning how to play with each other. Chelsea season ticket holders also get 50% off Wycombe games 5/6 times a season. Adds a couple of hundred to the attendance now and then, generating a bit of extra money. Also, if Chelsea know that they're going to have players at Wycombe every season for the next 3/5/10 years then its in their best interests to help them pay for extra coaching/equipment/facilities too.

Not perfect, but better than the idea being suggested.

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That's a good idea, I like it.

However, how do you pick sides? Would it be fair that Wycombe get Chelsea and Hartlepool get Sunderland for example?

Maybe a draft system of some sort instead of sending a clubs players to one club?

Kinky Gerbils said:

That's a good idea, I like it.

However, how do you pick sides? Would it be fair that Wycombe get Chelsea and Hartlepool get Sunderland for example?

Maybe a draft system of some sort instead of sending a clubs players to one club?

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And what would happen if those clubs drew each other in the cup? How would that work?

Also, what of the other teams in L1/L2 that don't have a partnership, they'd effectively be unable to get decent loans from any PL side, whilst also receiving a lot less support than those affiliated with someone.

I actually like the idea [MENTION=15934]Rohana[/MENTION], just playing devil's advocate!

Gullflyinghigh said:

And what would happen if those clubs drew each other in the cup? How would that work?

Also, what of the other teams in L1/L2 that don't have a partnership, they'd effectively be unable to get decent loans from any PL side, whilst also receiving a lot less support than those affiliated with someone.

I actually like the idea [MENTION=15934]Rohana[/MENTION], just playing devil's advocate!

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Correct, there isn't enough top clubs to go around.

Realistically you would want players from 10 or so Premiership clubs, after that the players are not going to be that much of a higher standard.

Mas I pointed out, maybe a draft system of sorts, all the Premiership and maybe championship clubs put x amount of players into a pool and then they are picked out, worst/poorest team first with the parent club covering the costs - that would also mean that the loaning club won't be forced to play them as they are paying them.

Rohana said:

If this whole PL B team thing was handled in a better way then I'd be all for it. Simply plopping Chelsea B, Manchester United B etc in to the football pyramid wouldn't work in the slightest.However, with some tweaking I think it could work. Instead of having a "B" team, Premier League clubs were twinned with local lower league clubs who were financially struggling. The Premier League club could send up to 5 English U-21 players on loan to the L1/L2/C and their fans would get a discount on entry to their games.

For example, Chelsea get twinned with Wycombe. They send them Ruben Loftus-Cheek, Isaiah Brown, Dominic Solanke and Alex Davey on loan. Wycombe get 4 young English players with talent, Chelsea get to have some of their youth players play competitive football together, and therefore get the added advantage of them learning how to play with each other. Chelsea season ticket holders also get 50% off Wycombe games 5/6 times a season. Adds a couple of hundred to the attendance now and then, generating a bit of extra money. Also, if Chelsea know that they're going to have players at Wycombe every season for the next 3/5/10 years then its in their best interests to help them pay for extra coaching/equipment/facilities too.

Not perfect, but better than the idea being suggested.

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But what would happen if a "twinned" team got promotion to the PL? The reason why this B team proposal keeps getting rejected is because it compromises both individual Club independence and the pyramid, and the pyramid is to my mind is one of the best things about football in England.

Kinky Gerbils said:

That's a good idea, I like it.

However, how do you pick sides? Would it be fair that Wycombe get Chelsea and Hartlepool get Sunderland for example?

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I would want it to be kept local, that's a key part of the plan I made up as I posted earlier. Strengthening local sports communities would be ideal, could even be a trickle down thing, where Sunderland give Hartlepool something, which frees it up so that Hartlepool can give Blyth Spartans something.

I see where you're coming from, but it isn't like Chelsea are going to loan out Hazard, Costa and Terry is it? Big clubs would still loan out players to a club who match their ability level. Chelsea will still have youngsters playing in every major European League, however the players who they feel are L1/L2 quality at present would be concentrated to one club. To keep using the Chelsea example, they have players on loan at Blackpool, Swindon and Scunthorpe this season. Both clubs will be loaning out players who are L1/L2 quality and with a restriction on 3/4 it should stay fairlyeven as I'd wager on all 20 Prem clubs having at least 3 players of lower league quality. Sunderland have players at Shrewsbury and Bradford for example.

Gullflyinghigh said:

And what would happen if those clubs drew each other in the cup? How would that work?

Also, what of the other teams in L1/L2 that don't have a partnership, they'd effectively be unable to get decent loans from any PL side, whilst also receiving a lot less support than those affiliated with someone.

I actually like the idea [MENTION=15934]Rohana[/MENTION], just playing devil's advocate!

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If they drew each other in the cup then it would be a normal game, both clubs are still the same, they've kept their identity. You could maybe do it that the lower league club keep a higher percentage of revenue, but apart from that it would go on as normal.

The clubs without partners is something I didn't think of. Whilst there would be nothing stopping the biggest clubs having teams across 2/3 leagues (Chelsea could have a L1, a L2 and a Conference club) it's the likes of Plymouth who would suffer as they haven't got a local club. Maybe clubs who don't have a twinned team get some sort of tax break, or an F.A grant to improve youth recruitment in the local area or even the F.A helping to cover the wages of a permanent U-23 English signing? There would need to be something to level it up though, agreed.

That or you could go the other way which would potentially work even better, and say clubs need to have a turnover of less than a certain amount to be eligible, so only the clubs who are struggling to cope get the chance to have a parent club.

Kinky Gerbils said:

Correct, there isn't enough top clubs to go around.

Realistically you would want players from 10 or so Premiership clubs, after that the players are not going to be that much of a higher standard.
.

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As stated above, the clubs with the biggest/best youth academies could double or even triple up. Manchester United and Man City probably have enough talent in the 17-21 age bracket to supply Oldham, Bury, Rochdale, Accrington, Morecambe,

I'm not so sure hat you'd only want players from a Top 10 club. Obviously for the financial side, a big club like Chelsea would be a bigger coup than QPR, but when it comes to players I think you could argue that there are some Championship clubs who could help take the slack. We could be in a position next season where we could be looking to loan out Caskey, Walton & Chicksen. Can't see many L1 clubs turning those players down, or something like Rea, Monakana and Muitt to a L2 struggler.

It was a rough idea that I came up with almost on the spot, so it's not flawless but safe to say there's some potential there.

Steve in Japan said:

But what would happen if a "twinned" team got promotion to the PL? The reason why this B team proposal keeps getting rejected is because it compromises both individual Club independence and the pyramid, and the pyramid is to my mind is one of the best things about football in England.

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You could have it so that a Premier League club could only be twinned with a club from a certain level or below. Lets say the cut off point was the Championship. Bristol City are twinned with Southampton, City go up to the Championship so the link is cut. Saints would then be free to look for another club to link with in L1, whilst City would have made links with Southampton which might help them get Championship quality loans in in the future.

Rohana said:

I would want it to be kept local, that's a key part of the plan I made up as I posted earlier. Strengthening local sports communities would be ideal, could even be a trickle down thing, where Sunderland give Hartlepool something, which frees it up so that Hartlepool can give Blyth Spartans something.

I see where you're coming from, but it isn't like Chelsea are going to loan out Hazard, Costa and Terry is it? Big clubs would still loan out players to a club who match their ability level. Chelsea will still have youngsters playing in every major European League, however the players who they feel are L1/L2 quality at present would be concentrated to one club. To keep using the Chelsea example, they have players on loan at Blackpool, Swindon and Scunthorpe this season. Both clubs will be loaning out players who are L1/L2 quality and with a restriction on 3/4 it should stay fairlyeven as I'd wager on all 20 Prem clubs having at least 3 players of lower league quality. Sunderland have players at Shrewsbury and Bradford for example.




If they drew each other in the cup then it would be a normal game, both clubs are still the same, they've kept their identity. You could maybe do it that the lower league club keep a higher percentage of revenue, but apart from that it would go on as normal.

The clubs without partners is something I didn't think of. Whilst there would be nothing stopping the biggest clubs having teams across 2/3 leagues (Chelsea could have a L1, a L2 and a Conference club) it's the likes of Plymouth who would suffer as they haven't got a local club. Maybe clubs who don't have a twinned team get some sort of tax break, or an F.A grant to improve youth recruitment in the local area or even the F.A helping to cover the wages of a permanent U-23 English signing? There would need to be something to level it up though, agreed.

That or you could go the other way which would potentially work even better, and say clubs need to have a turnover of less than a certain amount to be eligible, so only the clubs who are struggling to cope get the chance to have a parent club.



As stated above, the clubs with the biggest/best youth academies could double or even triple up. Manchester United and Man City probably have enough talent in the 17-21 age bracket to supply Oldham, Bury, Rochdale, Accrington, Morecambe,

I'm not so sure hat you'd only want players from a Top 10 club. Obviously for the financial side, a big club like Chelsea would be a bigger coup than QPR, but when it comes to players I think you could argue that there are some Championship clubs who could help take the slack. We could be in a position next season where we could be looking to loan out Caskey, Walton & Chicksen. Can't see many L1 clubs turning those players down, or something like Rea, Monakana and Muitt to a L2 struggler.

It was a rough idea that I came up with almost on the spot, so it's not flawless but safe to say there's some potential there.



You could have it so that a Premier League club could only be twinned with a club from a certain level or below. Lets say the cut off point was the Championship. Bristol City are twinned with Southampton, City go up to the Championship so the link is cut. Saints would then be free to look for another club to link with in L1, whilst City would have made links with Southampton which might help them get Championship quality loans in in the future.

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It's a good idea, like you said with a few flaws - I am using Chelsea and Wycombe as an example.

Why would you want to invest in Wycombe if you may have to cut ties in a couple of seasons if promoted - I think if you are being realistic teams like Wycombe will never be more than a Championship club (mass investment aside) why not allow them to stay with a linked club even if promoted to championship.

You say they wouldn't loan them Hazard etc, which under any normal circumstances you would be right, however what if he is coming back from injury? Long term suspension and he needs game time? (More realistically would be a player like Ohara of Johnson at Wolves) players that are far to good sent out on loan to the feeder club. Or it's the last few games of the season and they send them a player like Remy to seal the title? A higher league means a better standard for the players to play against.

What if Chelsea get relegated?

Would they want a say on how the club was run?

I also think it should only be an option for England/Scotish/Welsh/Northern Ireland players


I should point out as a fan of a Premier League club I am completey against the idea of B teams.

Ninja Elephant said:

It was more a commentary on the amount of times s/he "dislikes" my posts because I post opinions and take positions, rather than settling nicely atop a popular fence like a coward, but I wouldn't expect you to be aware of the context.

"The Premier League" is not to blame for the state of football in this country, which is in pretty good condition. If you aren't factoring in little things like diving, player wages, ticket prices, club finances... Just the minor things which the FA have allowed to spiral out of control. The Premier League isn't responsible for football in this country because the FA allowed them to become their own separate entity, and it is the FA who need to accept full responsibility for everything perceived to be wrong with football in this country. I would rather than the bigger teams weren't able to monopolise the sport so much, but of course they can and will continue to. In my opinion, the best solution at this stage is to be realistic. Clubs aren't getting smaller, so give them more opportunity to get their hoarded masses of young players into competitive football without upsetting smaller clubs by taking up league spots.

I am in favour of Premier League B teams competing in League 1/2, and involving them in the Johnstone's Paint Trophy is a good first step.

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Aside from rules and regulations, the Premier League is to blame for rising prices and wages. They are not interested in the game at all. They are in cahoots with Sky to make as much money as possible.

The FA are to blame for losing control, but that shouldn't admonish Sky and the Premier League for creating a monstrosity.

I couldn't give a fig if a cash rich team has hoarded in loads of young players and they don't have the opportunity to play them. Be more selective in future.

They've got the Carling Cuo to ruin, if they so please.

As i see it, it's not about a wrong and right and people taking responsibility for it. Carry on playing your game. Hopefully the fans will realise that the game is not worth the pound spent.

Barrel of Fun said:

Aside from rules and regulations, the Premier League is to blame for rising prices and wages. They are not interested in the game at all. They are in cahoots with Sky to make as much money as possible.

The FA are to blame for losing control, but that shouldn't admonish Sky and the Premier League for creating a monstrosity.

I couldn't give a fig if a cash rich team has hoarded in loads of young players and they don't have the opportunity to play them. Be more selective in future.

They've got the Carling Cuo to ruin, if they so please.

As i see it, it's not about a wrong and right and people taking responsibility for it. Carry on playing your game. Hopefully the fans will realise that the game is not worth the pound spent.

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Also, the players are to blame if stockpiled.

I have no time for a player going to Chelsea/Spurs/Arsenal for the cash, even at a young age you sort of know they won't make it if that's the attitude.

Kinky Gerbils said:

Also, the players are to blame if stockpiled.

I have no time for a player going to Chelsea/Spurs/Arsenal for the cash, even at a young age you sort of know they won't make it if that's the attitude.

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There was an article about youth players and some earning 30k a week for pretty much nothing.

They don't drive the market. I wouldn't apportion blame to them.

Barrel of Fun said:

There was an article about youth players and some earning 30k a week for pretty much nothing.

They don't drive the market. I wouldn't apportion blame to them.

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I would suggest a player that wants 30k a week over a proper chance isn't going to make it anyway, wrong attitude.

Kinky Gerbils said:

Also, the players are to blame if stockpiled.

I have no time for a player going to Chelsea/Spurs/Arsenal for the cash, even at a young age you sort of know they won't make it if that's the attitude.

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If I were a teenager and I was being told that I was the next big thing by everyone around me, with a PL club interested, would it not be a display of poor attitude/lack of ambition to not make the move?

The money would obviously be better but I think it's very easy to project an adult mentality onto people who're still (in most cases) children when dissecting their decision to make a move. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority would sign for sod all just to have a chance at the bigger teams, they'd be crazy not to.

When they get a bit older and they've got a more realistic idea of their ability (well, most seem to), I imagine that's where the money really comes into it.

Gullflyinghigh said:

If I were a teenager and I was being told that I was the next big thing by everyone around me, with a PL club interested, would it not be a display of poor attitude/lack of ambition to not make the move?

The money would obviously be better but I think it's very easy to project an adult mentality onto people who're still (in most cases) children when dissecting their decision to make a move. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority would sign for sod all just to have a chance at the bigger teams, they'd be crazy not to.

When they get a bit older and they've got a more realistic idea of their ability (well, most seem to), I imagine that's where the money really comes into it.

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Sorry, I don't have an issue with young players going to PL clubs, but I think we have to many players going to the larger clubs for
Cash rather than a club like Southampton who have one of the best youth set ups in The World.

As I mentioned, I don't believe these players tend to make it anyway.

Kinky Gerbils said:

I would suggest a player that wants 30k a week over a proper chance isn't going to make it anyway, wrong attitude.

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Do they want it or are they given it?

Rohana said:

You could have it so that a Premier League club could only be twinned with a club from a certain level or below. Lets say the cut off point was the Championship. Bristol City are twinned with Southampton, City go up to the Championship so the link is cut. Saints would then be free to look for another club to link with in L1, whilst City would have made links with Southampton which might help them get Championship quality loans in in the future.

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Personal view is that this would be massively complicated to manage, and would likely result in several problems. For example, City get promoted solely because of the PL loanees which are then withdrawn once they are promoted. City then struggle to survive and get relegated back to League 1, this time with no PL club to help them out. How fair was that on the other League 1 participants who missed out on promotion? Or another scenario could be that a twinned club would deliberately miss out on promotion so as to avoid being forced to decouple. My point is that such a system would distort competition in L1 and L2, and reduce the integrity of the FL overall.

As I said earlier, this is why Club independence and the pyramid need to be protected. I don't trust the FA or the PL to have the good of English football at heart.

Far better to tackle the problem at source - and somehow curtail the ability of the PL teams to hoover talent with little or no intention of actually playing them.

Kinky Gerbils said:

Sorry, I don't have an issue with young players going to PL clubs, but I think we have to many players going to the larger clubs for
Cash rather than a club like Southampton who have one of the best youth set ups in The World.

As I mentioned, I don't believe these players tend to make it anyway.

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I'm not trying to be an arse but do you have a example of a player like this?

I'd still contend that any young player who isn't being advised brilliantly, or has local ties, is always likely to pick the bigger team simply through the hope that they might make it there, money and youth setups be damned.

Most of the top four do this in the League Cup so why extend it to the JPT. Possibly done to improve crowds Leyton Orient v Gillingham or vs Chelsea or Arsenal res packed with internationals which would get biggest attendances.

How would you feel as Brighton fans if you were Lge 1 and say a Premier Lge club like Palace started loaning you players and dictating that they had to play instead of your home grown talent?

atfc village said:

How would you feel as Brighton fans if you were Lge 1 and say a Premier Lge club like Palace started loaning you players and dictating that they had to play instead of your home grown talent?

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Utterly disillusioned, even if it wasn't Palace. Feeder clubs by stealth is the death of the football league.

Blue Valkyrie said:

Utterly disillusioned, even if it wasn't Palace. Feeder clubs by stealth is the death of the football league.

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Exactly totally nail on head.

Gullflyinghigh said:

I'm not trying to be an arse but do you have a example of a player like this?

I'd still contend that any young player who isn't being advised brilliantly, or has local ties, is always likely to pick the bigger team simply through the hope that they might make it there, money and youth setups be damned.

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Bostock is the poster boy of money over career