[Politics] Brexit

fanseagull · Jan 17, 2019

Kinky Gerbils said:
Comedy Gold

Esther McVey at a leave supporting meet - " You can see the thousands of people coming in behind me"

Sky Host "We can see about a dozen or so"

Esther McVey "1500 people are expected here"

that I must see.....

cunning fergus · Jan 17, 2019

LlcoolJ said:
That has absolutely nothing to do with the point I made.

Struggling to think of anyone who would consider the Duke of Westminster a "man of the people".

Straw clutching, as ever.

Of course it does, you were highlighting how Farage, as a leaver, was seeking to make money from Brexit by placing a bet on sterling. This was to draw attention to his lack of integrity......

In recognising Farage’s lack of integrity, I was highlighting to you rich landowners who have been in receipt of millions of pounds from the EU’s CAP. These landowners include Tory Lords like Hesaltine, and the 8th Duke of Wellington, who sit in the Lords saying how bad it will be for the poor to leave.

Some neck eh?

WATFORD zero · Jan 17, 2019

She's a bit of a little tinker, that Theresa May isn't she :lolol:

Don't forget, patience is a virtue :thumbsup:

LlcoolJ · Jan 17, 2019

cunning fergus said:
Of course it does, you were highlighting how Farage, as a leaver, was seeking to make money from Brexit by placing a bet on sterling. This was to draw attention to his lack of integrity......

In recognising Farage’s lack of integrity, I was highlighting to you rich landowners who have been in receipt of millions of pounds from the EU’s CAP. These landowners include Tory Lords like Hesaltine, and the 8th Duke of Wellington, who sit in the Lords saying how bad it will be for the poor to leave.

Some neck eh?

Honestly, you (as ever) have Hoddle levels of self importance while getting everything completely wrong. Amazing.

Triggaaar · Jan 17, 2019

Bold Seagull said:
I always assumed our position as the 2nd biggest economy in Europe, the 5th largest in the world, trading with the 2nd biggest trading block in the world, would be suitable positions to start negotiating a deal that benefits each side that knows they will continue to trade, whatever the outcome, long into the future, without the idle threat of a no deal.

That's not negotiating, that's just saying 'hey, we're a big economy and we'd like to trade' whilst also saying 'we'll accept whatever deal you choose'. It's like going into a car dealership and saying 'I've got loads of money and I'll definitely be buying this car - how much?'.

In your scenario, where is the incentive for the EU to offer us something decent? There's none. They'd know we're going to have no choice but take whatever they offer us.

cunning fergus · Jan 17, 2019

LlcoolJ said:
Honestly, you (as ever) have Hoddle levels of self importance while getting everything completely wrong. Amazing.

Look, a pro EU Hereditary multi millionaire Tory Peer.......

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/sep/16/ninth-duke-wellington-elected-house-of-lords

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...ay/news/95006/embarrassment-theresa-may-peers

Decent bloke, you and he share similar political views.........nice.

melias shoes · Jan 17, 2019

A1X said:
Worth remembering what happens this Saturday

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...um-brexit-no-deal-crossover-day-a8541576.html

Worth remembering what happened 23 June 2016.
Remember that? That was the people's vote.
Does that excite you that people have died so they can't vote again? Sad man. I noticed that they say there would be almost 100,000 more than leave voters if everybody voted the same. Would we have to accept that figure considering there was 1,269,501 majority in favour of leave? Would we have to accept a majority of less than 100,000? When you can't accept a 1million plus majority in the first place.

Mtoto · Jan 17, 2019

cunning fergus said:
Look, a pro EU Hereditary multi millionaire Tory Peer.......

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/sep/16/ninth-duke-wellington-elected-house-of-lords

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...ay/news/95006/embarrassment-theresa-may-peers

Decent bloke, you and he share similar political views.........nice.

Look, an anti-EU knuckle-dragging, far-right racist.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/27/far-right-brexit-left

Decent bloke, you and he share similar political views ...... nice

Bold Seagull · Jan 17, 2019

Triggaaar said:
That's not negotiating, that's just saying 'hey, we're a big economy and we'd like to trade' whilst also saying 'we'll accept whatever deal you choose'. It's like going into a car dealership and saying 'I've got loads of money and I'll definitely be buying this car - how much?'.

In your scenario, where is the incentive for the EU to offer us something decent? There's none. They'd know we're going to have no choice but take whatever they offer us.

Actually, the car dealership analogy is quite a good one, because of course a car dealership also wants your servicing business and to look after the car in years to come, so that you'll probably trade in the car at a later date, and come back to them time and time again.

An idiot car dealer would take advantage of the customer with loads of money who is definitely buying a car.

The sensible car dealer, seeing a customer with a load of money, will still give them a good deal because they'll want that customer to come back and keep coming back.

We are a big customer to the EU. Their biggest concern isn't us or a no deal, or punishing us, it is finding the balance of making it unattractive to leave the EU to all the other members, that membership is a benefit, while giving the best possible terms to an important customer.

LlcoolJ · Jan 17, 2019

cunning fergus said:
Look, a pro EU Hereditary multi millionaire Tory Peer.......

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/sep/16/ninth-duke-wellington-elected-house-of-lords

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...ay/news/95006/embarrassment-theresa-may-peers

Decent bloke, you and he share similar political views.........nice.

Please stop digging. I didn't think I'd have to spell it out but, ok.....

The point (which has gone flying miles over your head) is that Farage has made huge swathes of the country think that he is a "decent bloke" and a "man of the people". Not part of the elite.

His actions and his wealth show that he is the opposite. His shorting of the pound also shows what a lying scumbag he is but that's another issue.

None of your examples have anything to do with that. They ARE the establishment, they are the people who good old Nige wants people to think he's the opposite of. When in reality he's not, he's a ****.

That was all I was talking about bruv. Honest.

Giraffe · Jan 17, 2019

Gwylan said:
As I said earlier, the problem with Leave options alone on the ballot is that it disenfranchises half the electorate. If that half didn't vote (and we had a lower turnout from the Leavers because they didn't like any of the options), we could have a turnout of just 30/35%, with the winner racking just 15% of the electorate - that would be a very thin mandate to base such a radical move on.

But if you put Remain on it it defranchises 52%, the winners. Sometimes in life you have to accept when you have lost and suck it up.

Triggaaar · Jan 17, 2019

Bold Seagull said:
We are a big customer to the EU.

The problem is, we won't be negotiating new deals after this deal - we won't be buying more cars, this deal is it.

Their biggest concern isn't us or a no deal, or punishing us, it is finding the balance of making it unattractive to leave the EU to all the other members, that membership is a benefit

Agreed on the 'making it unattractive to other members' bit

while giving the best possible terms to an important customer.

What? You're being silly for the sake of it. You think the EU want to give us the best possible terms (whilst also taking the first point into account)? You know that's ridiculous and I imagine if I searched the thread I'd find examples of you saying the opposite. Although we're a customer, we're looking at signing a lifelong agreement, not one that lasts a couple of years before we get our next car.

cunning fergus · Jan 17, 2019

Mtoto said:
Look, an anti-EU knuckle-dragging, far-right racist.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/27/far-right-brexit-left

Decent bloke, you and he share similar political views ...... nice

If he wants Brexit he is agitating for a left wing cause.

Not a great image/back story I grant you, however Lennon went to prison for his crimes, whereas the Duke of Wellington who royally took this piss out of tax payers expenses for years didn’t.

The benefits of powerful friends eh?

nicko31 · Jan 17, 2019

LlcoolJ said:
While people discuss whether or not Farage is part of the elite because he used a private plane, they are ignoring the much bigger issue of him shorting the pound on the night of the referendum.

And yet some people still think he's some sort of "decent bloke" "man of the people".

It's unbelievable.

Very clever and very manipulative. Some though still try and fool themselves still he's some kind of Robin Hood type hero, time and time again he's shown his true colours.

Nothing wrong with a private jet, just Farage tries to pretend to be something else he isn't

Baldseagull · Jan 17, 2019

cunning fergus said:
In what way am I “hardcore”?

I do not want to be a member of a undemocratic corporatist cabal, I don’t accept that position is hardcore.

The principle argument of any remainer is trade, concern rages about the banks, the city of London, global car brands, global pharma companies etc. etc. These are the arguments of tories, liberals or Blairites. We know what these people stand for, and that’s fine, but let’s accept what side of the argument we are on. I’m with Dennis Skinner, you are with Michael Hesiltine.

The pro EU lot are so hardcore that the word “leave” is nieve being interpreted to mean remain.

Mental!

I would say Dennis Skinner is pretty hardcore. There are a few Conservatives that I have time for, Heseltine is not one of them. You can stick me in the liberal pigeon hole if you like.

pb21 · Jan 17, 2019

cunning fergus said:
If he wants Brexit he is agitating for a left wing cause.

Not a great image/back story I grant you, however Lennon went to prison for his crimes, whereas the Duke of Wellington who royally took this piss out of tax payers expenses for years didn’t.

The benefits of powerful friends eh?

What makes you say that?

Nobby · Jan 17, 2019

Giraffe said:
Having given it some thought the only answer may be a second referendum provided all the options on the table were actually achievable.

I'd have something like "Which of the following should the Government of the United Kingdom enact to reflect the decision of the citizens of the United Kingdom to leave the European Union?"

Options:
- WTO (also known as no deal)
- Theresa May's deal (I would give it a name if I could think of something that wasn't rude)
- Canada +++ deal

I would limit it to three options with the losing option dropping off.

Then one month later I'd have another referendum with just the two winning options. Then we will have a clear winner with 50%+ so no one could say it wasn't supported. Having given the people the decision to vote leave it is only right they now vote to say how we do so.

Highest vote wins. Off we go and we can get on with our lives. Surely wouldn't be difficult to organise a simple referendum on this basis.

Seriously. Seriously. You think your average Joe would actually understand the options. The politicians don’t understand them why would anyone else? FFS

nicko31 · Jan 17, 2019

Giraffe said:
But if you put Remain on it it defranchises 52%, the winners. Sometimes in life you have to accept when you have lost and suck it up.

With Brexit there are no winners. Maybe some disaster capitalists of 55 Tufton Street may profit a bit more if there's a no deal.

cunning fergus · Jan 17, 2019

LlcoolJ said:
Please stop digging. I didn't think I'd have to spell it out but, ok.....

The point (which has gone flying miles over your head) is that Farage has made huge swathes of the country think that he is a "decent bloke" and a "man of the people". Not part of the elite.

His actions and his wealth show that he is the opposite. His shorting of the pound also shows what a lying scumbag he is but that's another issue.

None of your examples have anything to do with that. They ARE the establishment, they are the people who good old Nige wants people to think he's the opposite of. When in reality he's not, he's a ****.

That was all I was talking about bruv. Honest.

I don’t care if you want to have a pop at Farage, but to suggest he is somehow acting in the interests of the establishment is absurd.

The establishment are overwhelmingly pro EU, as no doubt are landowners getting millions from CAP, many are both.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ses-were-only-group-to-vote-to-stay-in-the-e/

I am happy to debate the pros and cons of Brexit but those who propagate the myth that the EU is a socialist concern despised by Tory Toffs will be challenged for their error.........the establishment make money from the EU, the poor don’t.

WATFORD zero · Jan 17, 2019

Triggaaar said:
That's not negotiating, that's just saying 'hey, we're a big economy and we'd like to trade' whilst also saying 'we'll accept whatever deal you choose'. It's like going into a car dealership and saying 'I've got loads of money and I'll definitely be buying this car - how much?'.

In your scenario, where is the incentive for the EU to offer us something decent? There's none. They'd know we're going to have no choice but take whatever they offer us.

Now Imagine a car dealership where he knew your monthly income, and all your outgoings and what every other car dealer was selling and what your wife said she wants . And you knew his salary, sales bonuses and bonus cut off dates together with the profit o in every car he had.

THAT'S INTERNATIONAL TRADE NEGOTIATIONS

It's really not hard to understand :shrug:

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