The UK is "deeply elitist" do you agree?

Simster · Aug 28, 2014

drew said:
Can you explain how someone from a privelaged background studying the same degree as the council kid from Swindon has a better understanding of military strategy?

Of course not, but if you read it, he's not arguing that point. He's saying someone educated at Oxbridge will have a better understanding of such things than someone uneducated from a deprived background.

In other words, he doesn't care about their background, he'd just prefer someone making decisions to have been educated to the highest level as opposed to spending those years on a Swindon estate.

Doc Lynam · Aug 28, 2014

sahel said:
Many years ago I applied to Oxford. My school had one scholarship at Oxford that only someone from my school could get. There were a myriad of other such "closed " scholarships and awards not just to particular schools but to people with specific backgrounds - for example the third son of a reverend with a wooden leg from Suffolk!. I cant claim up to date information so was reluctant to quote this. But I doubt it has changed much

I wonder if Prince Charles' family had the same issues getting him into Cambridge

The Grockle · Aug 28, 2014

Of course Britain is elitest but is it really different to any other country?

I've nothing against parents sending their children to the best schools if they can afford to do so but having known dozens of moderately intelligent private school kids who now hold very decent jobs and through a network of 'jobs for old boys' are never short of offers IMO it does show how unfair the system is.
Also the culture of pulling strings to get children into top firms after they leave Uni is completely unfair and happens all too often.

Not Andy Naylor · Aug 28, 2014

Many good points.

I believe that some Oxbridge admissions tutors are going into state schools and offering advice and trying to get more applications. The difficulty is that interviews are then often held by subject tutors, who may be less able/willing/knowledgeable to make allowances if necessary or see beyond the preparation given by independent schools. Even so, the stats suggest that state school pupils are getting through.

Of course, if we're serious as a nation about giving our children the best education, then state schools have to be given more resources. Maybe remove the laughable charitable status from independent schools. At any rate, make state schools so good that no-one would waste their money paying for education.

But do our public-school-educated ministers want that to happen?

Interestingly, Gove (not Eton-educated) did. And look what happened to him.

GreersElbow · Aug 28, 2014

71% of senior judges
62% of senior armed forces officers
55% of permanent secretaries (the most senior civil servants)
53% of senior diplomats.

And all of these would have been in their jobs for atleast 20-30 years already, society is changing. Back then, most people didn't receive an adequate education unless they did go to private school.

If they held a similar poll for this generation, but in 20 years, the results would be different.

dingodan · Aug 28, 2014

beorhthelm said:
no, i dont. i think the top jobs benefit most from best educated people. how does it help someone's understanding of law, or military strategy if they've lived on an estate in Swindon?

Living on an estate in Swindon is neither here nor there, or at least it shouldn't be. Growing up in Earls Court doesn't make you brilliant legal mind or military strategist either does it?

But you reveal something in your statement which is true. Someone who has grown up on an estate in Swindon is much less likely to find themselves a candidate for an Oxbridge Law degree than someone who has grown up in Earls Court. But why? It's not down to inherent ability or merit, in fact your qualification for the person who is not suitable was simply that they were from an estate in Swindon. Why?

That person growing up in an affluent part of London may end up a better candidate for a Law degree, but it's because they will likely have had access to better quality primary and secondary education. Their parents are likely better off than the Swindon parents, that's basically the nub of it.

The determining factor in getting a good job is having a good education, and that's how it should be.

But the determining factor in getting a good education is socioeconomic, & that's a problem.

looney · Aug 28, 2014

Social mobility went into reverse when labour opened the immigration floodgates and over regulated every basic profession. Its not difficult to work out that if there is 20 people rather than 2 going for each job its going to slow down any progress up the ladder, added to this is you need a health and saftey license to get some jobs.

Its stiffed the poor big time. But then again labour is now the party for the guilt ridden poorly educated middle classes.

ATFC Seagull · Aug 28, 2014

Not Andy Naylor said:
Interestingly, Gove (not Eton-educated) did. And look what happened to him.

Well, that's a very interesting take on it. Gove wanted to make state schools "better" in that 'get them ready for Oxbridge' sense, right from an early age. Which might have benefited 1% of students across the country and destroyed the end product for the other 99%.

The state education system in this country (yes I am biased) is underfunded (in that it can't offer the extra-curricular opportunities that private schools can) but generally good. I think, academically, we're getting them to the age of 18 fantastically. The problem is, that once there, those that want to go to Oxbridge find that they haven't been exposed to the right stuff to compete with privately educated students. THAT's where we need to find the extra money and attention.

Nibble · Aug 28, 2014

Having attended Public school I would say that you come out prepared for a certain life, you are however lacking in empathy and other crucial character traits. This is strikingly apparent in those that run the country, whatever their political bent.

ATFC Seagull · Aug 28, 2014

Additional point - we also need to do a lot more to 'narrow the gap' so that more kids from very poor background are actually getting to aged 18 with the prospect of top grades and going somewhere like Oxbridge, but that's a slightly separate issue to changing the curriculum (and needs to go way beyond schools, starting in the home at birth - although the current government are making massive cuts to Sure Start).

Norman Potting · Aug 28, 2014

Possibly, do people in the UK spend too much time bemoaning the fact that people who (in their perception) went to the right school/church/own right pet/know the right people seem to do better than they do rather than getting on and trying to do as well as them?

beorhthelm · Aug 28, 2014

dingodan said:
But the determining factor in getting a good education is socioeconomic, & that's a problem.

partially. but that isn't really the issue i was getting at which is that "diversity" shouldn't be an important metric for those that run the country, their education should be. and while its there are socia-economical obstacles to getting up into those echelons, we must also consider that generally its not a two way process (unless people chose to). yesturday's Swindon estate dweller can become today's Earls Court dweller, in the judicary, civil service or whatever. those that rise up become the elite: the group is self defining, so we shouldn't attack it for coming from good educational background.

Lawson · Aug 28, 2014

I have just finished my masters at Cambridge and can say that most people's conceptions of oxbridge are either relayed myths or based on out of date information. I am working class, I worked as a carpet fitter in the summers to support my studies and neither of my parents went to university yet I was not prejudiced against in the selection process and neither are other applicants many of whom come from similar backgrounds. There is a oxbridge domination of the higher roles in society but I can say with confidence there is a gulf in quality between lower universities and the very best. I went to Winchester for undergraduate where I came top of my class and thought studying 10-8 in the week was alot, it was more than my peers, but at Cambridge I had to work most days from 9-12 to keep up with the course, the compulsory extra curricular studies (language courses/crash couses in finance etc/extra seminars). It is the sheer level of work they demand to a much higher standard that makes their graduates desirable, they have the best facilities and connections but you are not given a golden spoon you have to seize youe chance. I met the most intelligent people I have met in my life there, its the well rounded ones who are truly amazing. The university is only made up of 30 per cent roughly of private schoolers, higher than average but it is because their schooling quality is higher, also remember that there is a significant amount of foreign students in attendence so it isnt merely British elitism.you could not get away with favouritism today in the way of letting a rich person with low grades attend, the only way it could take place in theory is a packed course where they have to reject one of two academically identical students then they could ditch the poorer one, but you forget most of the interviewers dont care about the persons family connections they care about what they will become and if they have a chance of adding to the university's lasting legacy. We are not american private universities like harvard where through the legacy scheme you can pay your way in, the costs are not higher than all other unis, attending Cambridge was cheaper and better value than Winchester which reallly suprised me. As a last point most of the stories bashing oxbridge misconstrue thr facts and present them to support their agenda without an objective consideration of the debate, particularly the cases where people are rejected etc which knowing the process have glaring holes when reported to show elitism.

Superphil · Aug 28, 2014

Doc Lynam said:
I wonder if Prince Charles' family had the same issues getting him into Cambridge

William went to St Andrews, Harry didn't go to university.

Not Andy Naylor · Aug 28, 2014

ATFC Seagull said:
Well, that's a very interesting take on it. Gove wanted to make state schools "better" in that 'get them ready for Oxbridge' sense, right from an early age. Which might have benefited 1% of students across the country and destroyed the end product for the other 99%.

The state education system in this country (yes I am biased) is underfunded (in that it can't offer the extra-curricular opportunities that private schools can) but generally good. I think, academically, we're getting them to the age of 18 fantastically. The problem is, that once there, those that want to go to Oxbridge find that they haven't been exposed to the right stuff to compete with privately educated students. THAT's where we need to find the extra money and attention.

Before the sentence of mine you quoted, I made a similar point about under-funding. We need to make state education for all students (not just an elite) so good that it doesn't make sense to pay for private education.

But that would mean higher taxes. I went through state education to Oxford in the 1970s, and there were significant differences: I went to a grammar school - elitist, of course, but based on merit not wealth - which did give us the extra time to prepare for the Oxford entrance exam. And I had no financial worries about going to university because fees were paid and I got a full grant. To fund the necessary improvements in state education and to pay fees and grants again would mean massively increasing taxes, even if not back up to 1970s levels (the electorate would never stand for that now).

Goldstone1976 · Aug 28, 2014

If you accept that private schools do, for whatever reason, offer an education that is more likely to produce adults who are employed in the upper echelons of the professions, academia, politics, diplomacy et al (note, I didn't say "offer a 'better' education"), and you also accept that dumbing them down to the lowest common denominator is not a great idea for UK plc, then surely the best answer is to ensure that fee-paying schools are compelled to offer full scholarships to the brightest local kids in meaningful numbers (say 25% of total intake). This would be funded by increasing the fees for the other 75%.

Oxbridge could then continue to take the brightest students who wanted an Oxbridge-style education (and many bright 18-year olds who could get in choose not to go there, some for good reasons, some for bad) and social mobility would be significantly enhanced.

Obviously, there would be some parents who can currently only just afford to send their kid to a fee-paying school who would then not be able to, but I believe they would be in the minority (if you can afford £15k pa, most can probably afford £19k).

Someone made the point that most of the people who are privately educated have inherited wealth. In my experience, this is absolutely not the case - though it may be truer for Eton, Harrow, Winchester and St Paul's (oh, and possibly Roedean/Cheltenham Ladies college too). In my experience, the vast majority of kids have parents in the professional classes where the school fees are a very material part of their disposable income.

In a utopian society, one would wish for every school to be able to offer the very best education that could possibly be offered, but until utopia (along with the massive tax rates for everyone in order to pay for it) arrives, I honestly believe the most pragmatic partial solution would be to significantly widen access through full scholarships to those who are smart and hard-working enough to justify getting into fee-paying schools, but have the misfortune to have been born to parents who do not have sufficient income to send them there.

Dick Knights Mumm · Aug 28, 2014

Not Andy Naylor said:
I believe that some Oxbridge admissions tutors are going into state schools and offering advice and trying to get more applications. The difficulty is that interviews are then often held by subject tutors, who may be less able/willing/knowledgeable to make allowances if necessary or see beyond the preparation given by independent schools. Even so, the stats suggest that state school pupils are getting through.

You can look on that as doing the minimum. It shows they are not serious. If they wanted the best they would make radical changes.

Dick Knights Mumm · Aug 28, 2014

Goldstone1976 said:
If you accept that private schools do, for whatever reason, offer an education that is more likely to produce adults who are suitable for employment in the upper echelons of the professions, academia, politics, diplomacy et al

Why would anyone accept that ?

Goldstone1976 · Aug 28, 2014

Dick Knights Mumm said:
Why would anyone accept that ?

Simply because of the stats that have been quoted in this thread. I'm not making a political point, just a statistical one; though perhaps it could have been better phrased.

EDIT: I've edited my first sentence to more accurately reflect what I intended to say.

dingodan · Aug 28, 2014

beorhthelm said:
partially. but that isn't really the issue i was getting at which is that "diversity" shouldn't be an important metric for those that run the country, their education should be. and while its there are socia-economical obstacles to getting up into those echelons, we must also consider that generally its not a two way process (unless people chose to). yesturday's Swindon estate dweller can become today's Earls Court dweller, in the judicary, civil service or whatever. those that rise up become the elite: the group is self defining, so we shouldn't attack it for coming from good educational background.

Well you say that they are self defining, but you did just define them - They didn't grow up on an estate in Swindon.

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